On the Edge of the Inside

Ready to set sail on a unique journey through the world of Christianity, wine, and pirates? We promise you'll gain a fresh perspective on faith as we uncork a delectable 2015 Chateau Monteil D’Arsac Bordeaux blend, discuss the creation of pirates, and delve into the theology of being on the edge of the inside. This unconventional voyage is sure to provide an eye-opening examination of church practices and their modern relevance. 

Together, we'll navigate the treacherous waters of 17th-century pirate history, revealing how privateers, by losing their commissions, were pushed towards piracy. This exploration allows us to understand better the changing landscape in Christianity today. We explore Richard Rohr's concept of on the edge of the inside, which has profound implications for how we view Christianity and its institutions today. What if truth is found not at the center, but the edges of our groups and beliefs? This idea serves as a compass guiding us on our journey through the complexities of Christian identity. 

Inspired by Jesus' teachings, we shed light on the emergence of two distinct camps within the Christian identity - the institutional church and the deconstructing community. Here on the edge of the inside, we explore a space that may not be easy but is profoundly meaningful, holding the potential for a more inclusive, empathetic, and diverse Christian community. So grab your glass and join us for an enlightening expedition.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:46

Well, hello again, my friends. This is Jeremy. Welcome to episode six of Cabernet in Pray. This is the podcast that explores Christianity through the beauty of wine, and we're in episode six now. I began with an episode by myself, setting the stage, setting the tone a little bit, and then we've had two different people in the wine industry that I've had a chance to interview, two different people in the church so far that I've interviewed, and now we're back to episode six, and it's just me, just me and you. I have some things I want to share today, and so I just thought you know what I'm going to record this and to dive into some ideas that I want to share somewhere, and this seems like a great place to do it. So I'm thankful that you are listening or watching or wherever you're connecting to this, and for those of you who have left reviews and have given me feedback, I so appreciate that. I encourage you to continue to do that. Spread the word. We're obviously this is a little baby podcast. It's just getting its legs about it. So we're into episode six, got our next few guests already scheduled and just enjoying this a lot and hope that this is meaningful to you and obviously something that is helping you as well.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Before we begin, if you've been a part of these before, you know that we got to talk about what we're drinking today, and even when it's just me, I still got to drink, right? I mean, I got to keep the podcast vibe alive, and so today I have a gem that I've been saving for a bit. This is a wine. I don't know how to say so. Part of getting into wine is acknowledging when you're in way over your head and I don't even have an idea how to pronounce this one. This is from France. This is a 2015 Chateau. I'm just going to say Montes d'Arsau, maybe, right, maybe that's how you say this, maybe it's not.

Speaker 1: 3:42

This is a Bordeaux blend, which I have become a huge fan of Bordeaux blends, partly because I got to take a trip to Bordeaux and you know, when you get to experience something in person, it really hooks you, and I was just amazed at what I experienced there, but also because I love the way that Bordeaux blends usually primarily Merlot and Cabernet mixed together. They're great for being big enough in body, but also approachable enough fruity enough that they're not going to knock you over. You don't have to always have a big piece of steak to enjoy it with, and some of you who only drink Cabernet, you know what I'm talking about. Sometimes you're like, whoa, this thing needs a piece of meat in order to go down easier, but this is a 2015. It's 52% Merlot, 48% Cabernet Sauvignon, which, again, very traditional Bordeaux blend.

Speaker 1: 4:41

As I was researching, I came across an amazing phrase to describe just not just this wine, but the actual year the vintage of Bordeaux in 2015. Jansus Robinson said that 2015 is the Tom Hanks of Bordeaux Vintage. It's universally beloved, warmly well-rounded and super charming, and I love whenever a year you just is noted that, hey, this is a big year for a wine. Make note of that. And when you hear people talk about that, that's a great chance for you to go and try to snack some of those bottles and figure out what the hype is. And so if you want to get into Bordeaux, you're like, hey, this sounds interesting. Maybe see if you can find 2015 and try to track one down.

Speaker 1: 5:26

This is a great year, and so this is what I'm drinking in my glass today. Now I will say I was tasting this right before and on the nose I got tons of big, bold red fruit, and so I got red cherry, raspberry, got some blueberry in there. That has since mellowed out as it sat in my glass a little bit, so that was like straight out of the bottle, really pronounced fruit notes, but on the palate it's much more balanced, and so it's not this jammy fruit balm that you might expect, just when I was originally smelling it. Very, very balanced, mellow. I even got some notes of black pepper kind of mixed in there, and as I was again reading through the notes that I had read earlier on it, that phrase warmly, well rounded really does sum up how I would describe this wine. It's just a great overall wine. I'm enjoying it right now on an afternoon in a podcast, you know recording. It would also go great with a meal as well. So, big fan of Bordeaux, that's what I'm drinking. If you are sitting at home enjoying this podcast, hopefully you have a bottle as well. If you're driving listening to this in the car, hopefully you don't have a bottle or a glass in front of you. So that's how. That's how we do that.

Speaker 1: 6:42

Now, today I want to unpack an idea that I have been thinking a lot about lately, and this was one of those. Something piqued my curiosity, my interest, and so I started reading a bunch on it, diving into it, and then when I get excited about something, the way that it works in my head is I want to communicate it. You know, I want to, I want to write about it, I want to podcast, I want to share an idea. That's as a communicator, as a teacher, that's kind of how I process through a lot of ideas, and so this was one of those. Almost as soon as I discovered this idea, I was like I want to share this, I want to, I want to go deeper into this, I want to talk about this one. Before I do, I want to talk about something that I got to get to before I get to that, and that is pirates. Yes, like the pirates on the ocean. And you're going wait, I did not see that coming. Of course, pirates. Right, we're talking about pirates.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Oh, why am I talking about pirates? Well, first off, a little fun fact about me I love pirates. I've been enamored with pirates. I read lots of books on pirates. I've just been fascinated by that time in history, that group of people, how it came to be, what they did, the. You know the consequences of all that. I've just been very fascinated by that point in history and have always thought it's such an interesting time and an interesting development.

Speaker 1: 8:03

And so recently a friend sent me a documentary on Netflix that is all about the pirates and I thought, yeah, sure, I want to watch it. I haven't even finished this yet, I just started a few episodes into this. But this, all these ideas were kind of spinning around in my head together and so I was like, oh, I got to share all these. So what is fascinating about this show is they really talk about and illustrate the origin of the pirates. Like how did we one day have a whole bunch of pirates around? They didn't come out of nowhere. It wasn't like one day there were no pirates and the next day there's a whole bunch of pirates.

Speaker 1: 8:37

How did we get pirates? Now, you may not know this, but most of what we know of as the pirates were originally known as privateers. Oh, you might go, that sounds kind of similar. What's what's the difference? Well, a privateer is a private person or vessel that engages in maritime warfare under the commission of war. So they had the, the documentation, usually the authority of a country to go and do their pirate deeds. So these were not rogue pirates, these were privateers who are essentially doing pirate things, but they're doing with the backing of a country. So England would hire you know a group of people and say, hey, go attack Spain and their ships. And you're doing it, you know, in the name of England, or vice versa. Spain would hire these guys, they would attack you know the English and you're doing it under, under our commission, right, and these privateers would be paid for this, and so this was their job and and they got really good at it and they did it for a long time. And so you have a whole bunch of people developing these skills, these, these you know skills of maritime warfare and how to take and plunder, and, and they're doing it on commissions.

Speaker 1: 9:51

But there's a shift where the commissions run out and these countries no longer want to pay the privateers to do this anymore, and so you suddenly have all of these privateers out of work and they have all these skills, all these things they developed and and nothing to do with it now. And this is really interesting line that that one of the historians in this documentary said that this. This line stood out to me. He said a privateer without a commission equals a pirate. A privateer without a commission equals a pirate. So when you have all these privateers and then you suddenly remove the commissions, you get pirates. And that's essentially the formula that created all these pirates, because another way of saying it was they say a privateer was a pirate with papers, right, that's that's the only real difference. They had this back and they had this commission. Well, you remove that and the person still has all these things that they were doing it. And so you have all these privateers who had been trained and experienced in the art of naval war on behalf of their country.

Speaker 1: 11:01

And then suddenly there's job cuts and they're all looking around like what are we going to do now? What on earth do we do? And so they decided we're not going to completely leave the life that we know, all the skills we developed, all the things that we're good at. We're not going to leave that, but we're going to have to make a shift, we're going to have to adjust what we're doing. And so today I would say we are fascinated by pirates because they reveal something to us about this time in history. It's a very unique time in history, and these pirates were reacting not only to the fact that they had no more commissions, but to what they saw wrong in the world, and they thought governments were huge and they were neglecting the people. And so a lot of these pirates at least in their minds were real life Robin Hoods. They were going to go take from all these merchants and all these countries that had the surplus and they were going to redistribute it and they were going to give it to the people who needed it the most, and so the situation caused people to shift.

Speaker 1: 12:02

Now, I'm a history nerd, I love reading history, and there are lots of moments like these, like this moment in the creation of the pirates, that history causes people to make a shift and then new identities are formed out of that. So something changes, and then people who used to operate this way now have to make a shift, and in the process of shifting there are new identities, there are new ways of thinking. Now I say all this to say that I think we're in the middle of one right now. I think that enough is changing around us, especially in the church landscape, in the Christian landscape, that there is this shift happening, and so there are many people who are being a part of that shift and they're realizing their identity is changing as well. They're not thinking of themselves the way they used to, and again, it's another point in history where, because things are now different, we're seeing people react and adjust accordingly.

Speaker 1: 12:58

Now Richard Rohr is an author who has a concept that I want to explore today. It has fascinating implications for the future of Christianity. It also speaks to a real deep part in me, and so this is why, when I read this phrase, I was just immediately moved. The phrase that Richard Rohr coined is on the edge of the inside. Ok, that's the phrase that I want to talk about On the edge of the inside. Now, this actually was brought up to me. Someone who works for Richard Rohr was at a communion event and I was sharing some things and they came up after when they said you know, richard has a phrase that is exactly what you're describing. And so I was like, yeah, what's the phrase? And they said it's on the edge of the inside, and they sent me some documentation on it, and it was just one of those immediate connecting points for me of like, yes, this way that he's articulating it is giving words, giving verbiage to so much of what I feel, and so I want to unpack a little bit of this today.

Speaker 1: 14:03

Now, what is he talking about when he says the edge of the inside? He says that practical truth is more likely found at the bottom and the edges than at the top or the center of most groups, institutions and cultures. Ok, practical truth, what we find most true and most practical, is not coming from the center, according to Rohr, it's coming from the bottom and the edges, and he said this is true in groups and institutions and in cultures. He might be going what are these talking about? This is counterintuitive stuff, right, because if we think what's the best representation of something, we're likely going to go to the center of it. That's where you see, that's where we would expect oh, you're going to get the real answer, the real version. We would go to the center.

Speaker 1: 14:53

If I said, hey, describe Christianity to me in America today, you might think of a few popular mega church pastors. That might be where your mind goes. Well, this person really kind of embodies it. Or this church it's huge and this is a representation of American Christianity. Maybe you would think of a popular Christian author, this person and their words. They really illustrate what Christianity is all about. You would likely be looking to the center of Christianity, and at least in America, if you were trying to answer that question. But Rohr pushes on this idea. He says it like this when you are at the center of something, you usually confuse the essentials with the non-essentials and get tied down by trivia, loyalty tests and job security. Not much truth can happen there. There's these realities that Rohr talks about, that when you're in the center, these are the things that you often end up dealing with. You spend a lot of time on them, and so it shapes your total outlook.

Speaker 1: 16:07

Now, I absolutely experienced this when I was a lead pastor. I was very much at the center of this American version of Christianity and I was at the very core of it. I was at the center of that. I felt like I represented something so much bigger than myself. I felt like I spoke on behalf of our community our little piece of the pie. But I also represented a version of the church that I felt like I was stewarding and I was a part of. Now there were lots of this that I really enjoyed, that I thought were great.

Speaker 1: 16:45

But I can also say there was a pressure when you're living in the center, when you're maintaining the center. To keep it going, I have to keep things afloat, I have to make sure that things aren't going to fall apart under my watch, and there's practical elements of this. So, hey, we have these many staff members and this is the budget, and so I have to make sure that people keep giving, and if they don't give, then we can't pay the staff and then we can't do these different ministries and all these pressures to keep these things going. And then, hey, I'm a part of this and everyone's looking to us and we're similar to them and you just feel this collective weight of the center and I was very much a part of that. And Roard talks about what comes with that.

Speaker 1: 17:32

But then he also says that there's a different reality that you experience when you're not on the center, when you're still a part of something, but you're a part of it on the edge. He says it like this when you live on the edge of anything, with respect and honor, and this is crucial you are in a very auspicious and advantageous position. You are free from its central seductions, but also free to hear its core message in very new and creative ways. I love this idea that when you move away from the center. You are free from the seductions of the center, but you're also free to hear this message in creative ways. That was certainly the experience that I have had that I walk through.

Speaker 1: 18:26

I noticed when I left my role as lead pastor and didn't go back into a church position full time that my views on a number of things started shifting, and it almost caught me off guard how quickly this happened, because I was the same person At least I felt like I was the same person. Nothing fundamentally had changed about me, but just moving locations from the center, where I was very much part of the day-to-day maintaining of the Christian mechanism of the local church, and then moving to the edges, where I was no longer running it. I was no longer involved in the day-to-day like I was. It allowed me that creative freedom that Roar was talking about, where I started pondering things and realizing I don't view some of these things the way I used to that I was literally changing my mind in a variety of ways that the weight of the center had been removed, as well as the seduction of the center of hey, keep this going, because this is what it allows you. Well, when you release that you say well, I don't benefit from the center anymore, I don't find that's not where I'm finding my life from. Then, all of a sudden, you're able to see things differently Now I'll give you an example of this.

Speaker 1: 19:49

I recently shared this in a sermon as well, because this has become a little bit of a pet peeve of mine, and so just get it off my chest. Recently I was preaching on Luke, chapter 8. And this is where Jesus raises to life a young girl, and she's 12 years old, she dies and Jesus raises her back to life. And so I was sharing this story and then I just said, hey, can I share a pet peeve? And people were like, yeah, yeah, do it.

Speaker 1: 20:17

Well, in this story, when Jesus goes to the house, he sees everyone mourning, and they're mourning and crying and weeping. And he says she's not dead, she's just asleep. And Luke says that the people in the house shift from mourning and weeping and crying and they begin laughing at Jesus. Now why would they laugh? Well, they laugh because when someone says something that stupid, that illogical, sometimes it's just this gut reaction that you have of like what are you stupid? Are you out of touch? Are you naive? Can you not see what just happened, and so they begin to laugh at him. And I said it's easy for us when we read that to go ah, we would never laugh at Jesus. If Jesus says something, we take it serious. And that just made the point. I think we still laugh at things that Jesus said we just have figured out ways to spiritualize it. And so now, from the edge, I see things that are about the center of Christianity in America that I go how do we get that? Like, where did that come from? How did that become a thing? Now here's an example I'll give you.

Speaker 1: 21:30

I often will look at a church's what we believe page, because you can find out so much about a church. People often are like, what do they like? Just go to the what we believe page and there are certain phrases you can look for that will communicate volumes to you of what that church believes and how they're going to practice their version of Christianity. There's one idea that I see all the time on different churches what we believe pages, and this has become a real pet peeve of mine, and so, because you're a part of this podcast, it gets to hopefully be a pet peeve of yours as well, or maybe you'll think I'm out to lunch Either way. Here's the line that I often see on these different churches.

Speaker 1: 22:11

So something like this, and I literally copy and pasted this from a church we believe that death seals the eternal destiny of each person. We believe the death seals the eternal destiny to which most of us say amen, amen and amen. Yes, that is why we have to save people from hell. We have, you know, death is coming right. And here's the reality.

Speaker 1: 22:36

If you read you read the gospels this doesn't make much sense. Like I don't know, like Luke eight, like I, just the story I was telling you. I read that story and I said good thing, jesus didn't believe this. Can you imagine Jesus shows up? Hey, no, she's just sleeping. No, jesus, she's not sleeping, she died. Oh shoot, if I had been here just a few minutes earlier, man, I would have been able to save her. But you know, death seals the eternal destiny and nothing I could do now. My hands are tied. No, jesus, jesus doesn't say that Jesus goes. No, no, no, she's not dead, she's asleep. And they laugh at him, and today we might laugh at him too.

Speaker 1: 23:20

Like, no, jesus, death seals the eternal destiny of each person and I would just say, friends, if you read the gospels, jesus literally brings people back to life from the dead, and if you're a Christian, you're hoping he's gonna do this for us as well. And you know, I would take this even further. I think Jesus is gonna do this for everybody. Like, I think that there's something really crazy up. You know, the God is up to here and it's really good news. And yet if you say that, people go oh, that's just, that's not the Christian way of thinking, that's not. You know, that's not how that works. See, with Jesus, death is not final, because it's possible to be awakened from it. He does it in chapter eight and that's not even the first person in Luke's gospel. Up to that point, that has been raised. From there you go back to chapter seven. Jesus raises someone else from the dead.

Speaker 1: 24:13

And yet we really wanna hold to this idea of, like death is the final say, and I just go huh, like, how do we get there? Like, did we not like see these stories where Jesus doesn't seem phased at all by death? And I would say, for Christians, death is reinterpreted from the point of view of God, like that's a Christian belief that, no, we don't give death the final vote. We don't give death the final say. We give Jesus and God gets to reinterpret death the way that God wants to and we believe that and that, to me, is a much more Christian thing.

Speaker 1: 24:51

But it's very difficult when you're at the center to see things like this. And I'll confess I didn't see this, you know, when I was at the center I would have moments where I would get you know, maybe confused or like conflicted on things that I believe. But I had a harder time breaking away until I had that creative freedom to see it and go. Yeah, that actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense, like I thought it did. It's really difficult when you're in the center to do it Now. It's not impossible and I don't wanna imply that everybody's gotta vacate the center in order for us to follow Jesus. In fact, there's a pastor right now who's navigating this, who's attempting to do this, and is doing it in a very admirable way.

Speaker 1: 25:37

I don't know if you followed any of this story, but Andy Stanley is a pastor in Georgia. He just had a conference called Unconditional where they made quite a stir. This conference was all about teaching Christian parents who are parents of LGBTQ plus kids how to love their kids, to say, hey, this is really a challenge and you may not be equipped well to do this, you may not know how to do this well, so we're going to put on a conference to help you do this. And I think, wow, that is someone who's in the center really trying to creatively figure out a way forward. And, as you can imagine, there's been no shortage of pushback that Andy has received on this. I mean all sorts of things. I've seen people publicly calling for him to repent of what he's doing. I'd rather go. What I mean here's someone who the reason he's getting this much fat is because he's in the center and he's trying to do this. And yet, when you're in the center, it can be incredibly difficult to see things creatively because you're so affected by the center. Now, I think, even if you're not affirming in your theology, which is saying, hey, I think God's okay with gay relationships, even if you don't get there, I would hope that you would be on board with parents of LGBTQ plus kids figuring out how to love their kids better. Like that seems like a pretty safe no brainer and yet there continues to be pushback to what they are doing.

Speaker 1: 27:26

So what's going on here? How do we navigate this? How do we figure this out? Well, it's just something that Jesus says in Matthew, chapter five, and this might be helpful to give us a little clue as to how do we navigate this. How do we understand how we who are following Jesus navigate where we are at, where we're located in this thing called Christianity?

Speaker 1: 27:50

Well, jesus in Matthew five, verse 17, says this says don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets, no, I came to accomplish their purpose. Now, this is a verse and an idea that I think is often misunderstood. So some people go look, we still need the law and the prophets, we need all these things. Jesus says he didn't come to abolish them, right? So like we're not getting rid of them. And maybe you grew up where it was, like Jesus and the 10 commandments, which are 10 of 613 laws in the Old Testament. But you know, we kind of pick and choose. We're gonna say this many are important or these ones are really important, and a lot of Christians still do that.

Speaker 1: 28:43

But what we seem to miss in this is Jesus says no, I came to accomplish their purpose. Sometimes I should say fulfill complete right. If I have a debt that I owe and it has been accomplished, it has been paid for, it has been fulfilled, I don't continue to owe that debt, I don't continue to pay on something that has already been paid off. Jesus has come to fulfill this, to accomplish all of these things. Now, why did Jesus have to explain this in Matthew 5? Why did he feel the need to say well, hold on, I have not come just to wipe them away, I've come to fulfill them? Because many people thought, in watching how Jesus lived and watching his ministry and hearing the things he said, many people concluded this guy's trying to abolish the law, he's trying to get rid of everything right. Because that was the center's reaction to what Jesus was doing. He was a threat to the center of religion in that time, and so the culture he's in the center was what was reacting to him going whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 1: 29:57

This is bad for business, and perhaps the easiest way to see this is just notice, when you read the Gossels, notice the way that Jesus practiced, or didn't practice, sabbath, and this was a literal day a week for the Jews where they would do no work and shut everything down. And then here comes Jesus doing things on the Sabbath that you are not allowed to do. And it's very clear and everybody knew that, and no one seemed to hold Jesus this. And Jesus, you know numerous times, says oh, no, no, no, I'm Lord over the Sabbath. Like I don't work for the Sabbath, I'm not like beneath you know, like, oh, here's the Sabbath and I have to obey it. No, no, like the Sabbath works for me, it ultimately supports me, not the other way around. And you can see in the Gossels people reacting to this, then trying to figure out well, no, this is not how we do it right.

Speaker 1: 30:54

And there's something that I love about Jesus, and if you see, who are the people that really immediately resonated with Jesus, who seemed to be really drawn to this, it's the people on the edges, on the fringes, because they didn't have the same kind of things that they were trying to protect, and so they were able to see this maybe much easier than some of the people who were in the center what it required of them to see the same thing. Richard Rohr says it like this To live on the edge of the inside is different than being an insider, a company man or a dues paying member. Yes, you have learned the rules and you understand and honor the system as far as it goes, but you do not need to protect it, defend it or promote it. It has served its initial and helpful function. You have learned the rules well enough to know how to break the rules properly, which is not really to break them at all, but to find their true purpose.

Speaker 1: 32:03

Now, I would suggest this is exactly what we see in Jesus, in Matthew five, jesus saying look, I didn't come just to wipe all these things out. I came to complete them, to fulfill them. Now you follow me and you're following something even bigger, even greater than that, and so all of these things we're leading up to. That's why I often tell people, when you read the Bible, it should always point you to Jesus, and if you ever read something that doesn't point you to Jesus or doesn't look like Jesus to you, something else is going on and you're gonna have to do some homework to figure out. How do you better understand? How to make that passage point you to Jesus? Because that's the way that Jesus understood it. This is how Jesus taught that all of it was pointing to him. And when you understand that it allows you to say, hey, we're not breaking the rules of the center, that's not the goal of the edges to go. Hey, we get to be out here and we're rambunctious and we do what we want. No, no, it's not that at all. But when we've lived with these, we've understood these. Now we can say, okay, we're going to embody them in creative ways, we're going to see what was the bigger point of these things, and not necessarily just a rigid adherence to what we had before, and it's something that we see from Jesus Now.

Speaker 1: 33:21

Today, when I look at the landscape of the church, at least in America I will just speak to that I would say there's essentially become two emerging camps of Christian identity and if you consider yourself a Christian today, you might place yourself in one of these two camps. And if you're not a Christian, so glad that you are a part of this podcast with us as well. This is a safe space for you to process through ideas and hopefully this is valuable to you, even if you don't believe some of the things that I believe about Jesus or if you're not where I'm at with some of these ideas. But I want to just say if you are a Jesus follower, you likely will resonate in one of these two different camps and I'm going to just call them the things that I call them. You can see all different ways of understanding these, but the phrases that I think are most helpful is to say the first would be the institutional church.

Speaker 1: 34:17

This is what we think of when we think of going to a church on the weekend. This is when I'm driving to a building. There's a physical space. Usually the building is owned by the church. The church is usually a nonprofit. They have nonprofit tax exempt status, they have all these things. That's what we think of as the institutional church. There are staff members, they're going to collect money, there is a formality to all of it and there's definitely. That's been a huge part of the history of the church in America as long as we've had the church as we know it. This has been really a dominant flavor of it, and so much so that some people say that's the only expression of the church. This is what church is is when you go to a space and there's a pastor and there's some sense of spiritual authority there. This is very much how many of us understand the church. But there's a newer identity maybe not new, but just is emerging, a louder maybe than it has been, and people are becoming more and more aware of this.

Speaker 1: 35:27

And this also gets called all sorts of things, but I'm just going to call this the deconstructing community. And so this is another community of the church also following Jesus. But this may not even happen within a building. This may not happen within relationships of people who are pastors or paid to be on a church staff. They may not gather every week or on the weekend. This may look totally different.

Speaker 1: 35:56

And so both of these groups here's what you got to realize both of these groups are actively making disciples of Jesus and in my role these days, I get to have a foot in both of these camps, and so I get to see both of these camps and I can tell you, in the institutional church they're still making disciples. People are coming to know Jesus, they're being raised up to better understand what is Jesus asking of them, and they're getting launched and sent out to try to look more like Jesus and impact the world for Jesus. That's happening in the institutional church, but here's the kicker it's also happening in the deconstructing community. Now, for some of you that may be like the total, like shock, like what do you mean? There are people outside of the church who have realized we don't need a church entity, a non-profit, to endorse the way that we're following Jesus, like we can actually make Disciples without that. And you can, because I've seen it and I'm watching this community emerge as well, and so many of them are doing so in a response to experiences that they have had in the institutional church and, and so I would hope at least at a minimum we can acknowledge that both camps are Producing Jesus followers. Now, sometimes I'll share these ideas and I'll come across people on either side that are so bothered by the other side that they want to say no, there's no, nobody's, you know, they're not making disciples over there, and I just want to push on, go. Okay, as much as you may have issues with either of these models, at least I hope we can say yes, the Jesus is at work right in both of these models. We're seeing both of these takeoff. They're just located in different places and they they are, you know, attracting different people and different Journates and different parts of their own experience with God as well. So both groups are actively making disciples.

Speaker 1: 38:04

And what I also say is both groups are also producing Very bad examples of Christians. You can find very bad examples of Christians in the institutional church and you can find very bad examples of Christians in the deconstructing community. And what often happens is, if you want to, you know, take sides and you want to take down the other, you will cherry pick the really bad examples they see. See, this is what it's like on that side, and you know it's easy to do because there are bad examples on both. But the fact that there are good examples on both, I think, should cause us to pause and go okay. So how do we, how do we make sense of this? How do we navigate this? I believe the healthiest model of church moving forward will leverage the strength of both sides, and so I'm not one that says, hey, we all need to shift one place or another, but I think we need to understand where we're located, how we're experiencing God and the the role that we may play in the broader picture of what God is doing in the church.

Speaker 1: 39:08

Now one of my favorite theologians of all times getting Walter Brueggeman. He has a book called the prophetic imagination. I just finished. I think it was my 11th read through this book, absolutely love this book. And Now he has an idea. This book that I think is so good. Brueggeman says this the task of prophetic ministry is to hold together criticism and Energizing. For I should urge that either by itself is not faithful to our best tradition. Okay, so Brueggeman says, hey, great miniatures. The way he talks about prophetic mission is like ministry that's moving us forward, that is helping us to figure out, like this is where it needs to go, is going to require criticism and Energizing. Now here's what I have found spending time in both of these camps.

Speaker 1: 40:02

The institutional church is great at Energizing. It really is good. It can rally people, it can raise money, it can raise support, it can get volunteers engaged. It does a great job at energizing. But the institutional church is weak at criticism. It is weak at saying, hey, here's something we may be missing, here's something we may be, you know, not doing right. It shields itself away from that, naturally, and so I would say the criticism is usually not a part of Most expressions of the institutional church.

Speaker 1: 40:41

Now the flip side. What about the deconstructed community? Well, I would say the deconstructed community is great at criticism. Like this is where they thrive, saying hey, here's a question we need to ask and we're not asking. Here's a thought we need to think and we're not thinking. Here's you know, something we need to repent about and we're not repenting like. The deconstructed community is great at doing this, but where the deconstructing community is often weak is that energizing Let. They often can be weak when it comes to where do we go next? What do we do next? How do I channel this? How do I keep building on this? That can often be missing, and so what you realize is that in both of these expressions of the church, we find what brugam in is talking about. We find criticism and energizing if we incorporate all of it, but for many of us, what that's going to require is a Shift in some of our thinking to go. You know what I'm gonna have to to figure out where I am and and what I'm going to do about it and how I see my faith.

Speaker 1: 41:47

I want to again go back to something that Roar says. He says this is the unique and rare position of a biblical prophet. He or she is always on the edge of the inside, not an outsider throwing rocks, not a comfortable insider who defends the status quo, but one who lives precariously with two perspectives held tightly together the faithful insider and the critical outsider at the same time, not in sconce, safely inside, but not so far outside as to lose compassion or understanding. It is almost an echo of what brugam in writes, right? So Roar is saying that, hey, if you want to be a modern-day prophet again, don't get hung up on that like I got a like forecast the future like.

Speaker 1: 42:42

No, necessarily, prophets are the ones who urge the future along, they, they, they nudge it along, they kick it forward, they pull it along. Right, this is the role of the prophecy. Hey, there's a better thing ahead, let's go for it. Let's figure out how to move from where we are Forward. And, and so the way to use Roar's wording is that you know, we're gonna have to figure out.

Speaker 1: 43:04

I'm not just gonna be an outsider on the outside going, yeah, this is bad, but I can't be so comfortable inside that I don't ever shift or I don't ever move. I've got to be on the edge of the inside, somehow blending these two worlds together, where I'm not all way out, not all way in, but I'm figuring out how to take the best of this and move us forward. And I would say that we have seen examples of people throughout history that are able to lead like this. We might think of Martin Luther King Jr, or a Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Dorothy Day or Oscar Romero. These are all great examples of people who seem to understand this prophetic posture Of how to not be an outsider who's throwing rocks, but not be a comfortable insider either how to help us move forward. But here's the really great news I'm meeting more and more people these days who are drawn to this space, who are drawn to this role, who are saying yes, how can we figure out a way to move forward?

Speaker 1: 44:08

How can we figure out how to move ahead? Let's, let's be a part of that. And these people are not wanting to leave Christianity. That's a big misunderstanding that I find in the deconstructing community, not not in that community. When people see that community, they think all these people just want to leave church, they just want to leave their faith, they just want to leave Jesus. They won't. You know, some people have called it the sexy thing to do, or they just want to go and sin more. No, they're not leaving Christianity, but they can't be a part of the center anymore.

Speaker 1: 44:39

In friends, I'll tell you if the center has become comfortable and it certainly was for me and in the center is a place where you're realizing, you know what, I'm not actually growing like I could be, or I'm not actually a part of how this thing is moving forward, then it's time to explore moving out of the center, and that doesn't require you leaving Christianity, doesn't even require you to leave the church, but it may mean you need to take a step out of a comfort zone. It may mean you go. Okay, I've got to figure out how to process this a little differently than I have been. I'm going to approach this a little differently than I have in the past. This is what we can do, and so today I want to invite you to find space on the edge of the inside.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Consider this, friends, your formal invitation to the edge of the inside. This is a space that I have settled into. I didn't know what to call it until a friend you know shared Roars wording with me and I thought that is exactly where I feel like I'm located. Right, I'm not the outsider, I'm not throwing rocks, but I'm definitely not on the inside anywhere. I'm not in the center anymore, and so I have just become, you know, okay with saying I'm on the edge of the inside. Now, this is not the easiest place to be, and so, as I make this invitation to you, I do want to warn you. It's far more comfortable to be on the center. It's even more comfortable to be on the outside and just walk away and make a clean break. Both of those are actually easier than trying to find space on the edge of the inside.

Speaker 1: 46:26

I believe that Jesus will meet you in profound ways on the edge of the inside, that if you will take a step out of the center or maybe in from the outside, depending on where you're at and say you know what, I'm gonna be on the edge of the inside, I'm gonna find space here and I'm gonna figure out how do I be a part of helping this thing move forward, how do I become a part of this prophetic work that God is wanting to do? Jesus will meet you there, and while it will not be comfortable, it will not be easy, it is incredibly profound and you will experience a whole different kind of life as you experience Jesus in this way. And so I wanna close with how Rohr talks about this because this is the more personal, emotional side of this. And yet it's so good, and I just wanna extend this invitation to all of us.

Speaker 1: 47:29

Here's what he says when you live on the edge of the inside, you will almost wish you were outside. Then you are merely an enemy, a pagan, a persona non grata and you can be largely ignored, written off or even consider yourself martyred and special. But if you are both inside and outside, you are an ultimate threat, a possible reformer and a lasting invitation to a much larger world. Oh, so good. I love this. It will be so easy to sit in the center with all of the allure and the perks and the safety and the comfort and the security of that.

Speaker 1: 48:23

It's easy to go outside and say I'm done with that, I want nothing to do with that, but to live as this ultimate threat, right, a possible reformer, a lasting invitation to a larger world. That, friends, is what the edge of the inside looks like, and that is where you and I can find Jesus in profound ways. And so if you are trying to make sense of your own journey with God right now and you don't know where you fit, welcome. You're in good company. If you don't quite know whether attend a church on the weekend or not, or can't seem to find one that you're resident with, welcome.

Speaker 1: 49:06

We see you, we get it right If you still want to follow Jesus, but you just can't make sense of some of the crazy stuff that gets said today.

Speaker 1: 49:16

We see you, we get it, we understand there are more and more people in this space.

Speaker 1: 49:21

You're not alone, you're not crazy, you're not delusional. There is room for all of us to do this, and I think that the future of Christianity, at least in America, is going to be the people who are in this space who are inviting us forward to say, hey, let's rethink this, let's keep at this, let's keep going and we're gonna see something beautiful emerge. And so, hopefully, as you process, wherever you're at in your own journey with God, whether you would consider yourself in the center or maybe you're outside, whether you consider yourself a part of the institutional church or maybe the deconstruction community, wherever you process yourself in all of this I wanna just at least make you aware of there is this other space, there is this edge of the inside that you are invited to join us and you're invited to occupy this space to experience Jesus in this ways, and I think it is so good and so meaningful, and I'd love to see more of you there. So, friends, here's to you and I in finding Jesus on the edge of the inside. Until next time.