Pour yourself a glass, and prepare to savor an enticing blend of faith, creativity, and life's joys with a hint of pressing social issues. We were thrilled to invite the remarkable Danielle Strickland to our table, an author, speaker, and self-proclaimed 'Ambassador of Fun.' With her latest book, "The Other Side of Hope," and podcast, "The Right Side Up," setting the backdrop, we swirled around the complexities of wine tasting, explored the concept of being "born again," and pondered the sober curious movement.
As we let these conversations breathe, we delved deeper into empowering women to find their voices and the role of the church in protecting its members. An intriguing pour from Danielle's life was her unique project called Imby, a tiny home movement shaking up the suburban monotony. As we neared the bottom of the glass, we touched on the harsh reality of human trafficking and our responsibility to prevent it.
We rounded off our chat with a toast to the LGBTQ+ community and the importance of inclusion within the church. And of course, no gathering is complete without a little fun, as we danced around the topic of sound effects in podcasting with Daniel. So join us for this enriching dialogue, as we explore faith, creativity, and life's joys, one sip at a time. Cheers!
DanielleStrickland.com
BoundlessEnterprise.org
The Other Side of Hope
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
Pour yourself a glass, and prepare to savor an enticing blend of faith, creativity, and life's joys with a hint of pressing social issues. We were thrilled to invite the remarkable Danielle Strickland to our table, an author, speaker, and self-proclaimed 'Ambassador of Fun.' With her latest book, "The Other Side of Hope," and podcast, "The Right Side Up," setting the backdrop, we swirled around the complexities of wine tasting, explored the concept of being "born again," and pondered the sober curious movement.
As we let these conversations breathe, we delved deeper into empowering women to find their voices and the role of the church in protecting its members. An intriguing pour from Danielle's life was her unique project called Imby, a tiny home movement shaking up the suburban monotony. As we neared the bottom of the glass, we touched on the harsh reality of human trafficking and our responsibility to prevent it.
We rounded off our chat with a toast to the LGBTQ+ community and the importance of inclusion within the church. And of course, no gathering is complete without a little fun, as we danced around the topic of sound effects in podcasting with Daniel. So join us for this enriching dialogue, as we explore faith, creativity, and life's joys, one sip at a time. Cheers!
DanielleStrickland.com
BoundlessEnterprise.org
The Other Side of Hope
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we talk God and theology while enjoying wine and going all over the place wherever it goes. And today we're going to explore a whole bunch of topics, so buckle up. Today, my guest is a longtime friend of mine named Danielle Strickland, and Danielle has her hand in so many things. I'm gonna try this to summarize a few of them to give you a little bit of a flavor here. Danielle has written six books, the latest of which is called the Other Side of Hope.
Speaker 1:She has a podcast called the Right Side Up, which recently celebrated half a million downloads. She speaks to people at events all over the world. She leads Boundless Communications Incorporated, which launches creative exploits, many of which we're going to discuss throughout this episode. For those of you who are familiar with the Enneagram, danielle is an Enneagram seven and has affectionately been called the Ambassador of Fun, which definitely fits her. She lives in Vancouver, canada, with her three sons and her husband, steve. She loves getting outside, doing new things, physical adventures, and she can't seem to turn down a free lunch. Welcome to the podcast Danielle.
Speaker 1:Thanks, jeremy, it's great to be with you Anything else we need to know about you. You do a lot. Is there any glaring omissions there in that list?
Speaker 2:Well, all the glaring omissions are all the things I'm terrible at and have failed at. Of course, I just leave those out of all the bios, just hand here.
Speaker 1:We sweep those under the rug. Those don't exist.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Those are just learning lessons on our way to the things that we do. Right, that's right, okay. Well, this is going to be a little bit fun, because Danielle's drink hasn't arrived yet, so there's a delivery sometime in route, maybe while we're discussing. We'll see.
Speaker 2:I'm right now focusing on a palate cleanse.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that I'm ready. That means we need to explain what it is we're drinking. I am drinking wine. She's going to be creative with it, so today this is exciting I have a 2018 Bodegas Tru Creanza. This is a 100% Tempranillo from Spain. I love a good Tempranillo. This is I'm getting green bell pepper, mushroom and blackberry Very great Big body. It feels like you can taste the soil with this one, which I don't know if that's appealing to people, but, like I like a little bit of dirt in my wine, feels like it's the real deal. So I just cracked open this bottle. I'm enjoying it. Danielle, what are you drinking while you wait for your other drink?
Speaker 2:Wait, can we go back to your drink for a second, because one is more interesting. But also, can you explain this to me when you do the green pepper, pepper whatever in your wine, is that because they grow those in the soil too, or do they actually put that in barrels, or like, how do they put those hints of things in wine?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. All those other flavors are not actually there. So when people talk about different fruits, those fruits are not actually mixed in, unless it's an infused wine, which that's totally different category. This is why this type of grape Venus, venictra or victura I forget how to say that right, this grape strain is just remarkable for having lots of flavors, and so when you grow it in different soils and different environments, it brings out all sorts of different flavors and it's unique, so the grape itself is what you're that's really what you're tasting.
Speaker 1:Able grape would not bring all those flavors, but this grape does, and so it captures all sorts of things. Now, some of the flavors are from the wine making. So if you put it in an oak barrel, you're gonna get certain flavors from that process. But when we talk about, you know, green bell pepper or like a Blackberry note, that's just from the soil and the grape itself. Just the beauty of wine, just the way Jesus made it.
Speaker 2:Amazing, I am drinking a very oh yeah, what year is? That this is bubbly. This is 2023.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good thing to know about.
Speaker 2:Made in Canada. Hints of cherry that's been infused with cherry actually. So that's clear when I taste this puppy. And, yeah, bottled in Canada. Not even in the Niagara region or the Okanagan, which are the two big wine regions in Canada, both beautiful regions.
Speaker 1:So that brings up a good point. You're our first Canadian on the podcast, so thank you for making us an international podcast today.
Speaker 2:No problem. We are traveling the world to bring Bringing the diversity of white women from Canada. It's an honor.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm gonna get into a hot take right off the bat. This will let all of our listeners and those watching know just how fun this conversation is gonna be. I've developed a personal working theory and I just want to see if you can confirm or deny this on record. Then I'll have this to reference back to you. But I have heard you speak. You're an incredible communicator and I have heard you speak all sorts of places, at conferences, numerous conferences. When I was a lead pastor, I had you come and speak for us for a weekend. I just heard you in a bunch of different settings.
Speaker 1:And here's my working theory is I think you have a favorite punchline phrase, and where I developed this theory is I realized you used this phrase and you put it into other people's mouth, so it's never you saying it, it's always you're telling a story and it's someone else in the story saying this phrase. But I've heard so many of your stories where the people use this phrase and so I finally realized no, no, no one's saying this, this is just your favorite phrase and the phrase is holy shit. And I say this because I have heard you say this from numerous stages in church and you would think, oh, you can't, cuss, you can't say that in church, and you do, and you get away with it, and you usually get applause. And this is like I don't know, this is white girl, canadian stuff that you can get away with that the rest of us can't. But what is your official stance on my theory of Danielle's favorite preaching phrase being holy shit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're on to me, jeremy, I think you're on to me. I think you've uncovered the mystery.
Speaker 2:You've exposed the formula, I think 100%. Somebody once said it, I'm sure, but it's not like holy shit, like you're swearing. It's like holy shit, like it's like. It's one of my favorite, it's my favorite words that describe what revelation is like. Like when people get it, that's like the most natural response is like whoa.
Speaker 2:And I think, as a communicator, especially in places where it's the same old, same old, I think there is there's room for shock and kind of that whole thing is an awakening thing, isn't it? Where they're like she did not just. But again, it's not so harsh that you lose people, but it is strong enough that you really awaken people. And then, of course, it's always in somebody's else's mouth, so that it's deniability. You know Well, she didn't actually say it, you know like. So, yeah, people really don't have an issue with it, apart from my mother and my husband. They both really don't like me swearing in general, cause my husband's like look, if I can't listen to you preach with my kids, what are you doing? You know, and I'm just like well, then, toughen up your kids, but anyway, they're my kids too, so it's weird.
Speaker 1:To be fair, you did say this at a somewhat, I would say, conservative conference one time, and it was followed by the person saying that they wanted to wash your mouth out with soap. So I think there might have been.
Speaker 2:Where is that?
Speaker 1:Am I allowed to say this?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think oh.
Speaker 1:The North American.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. And then there's times when I speak and I am like allergic and like when it's a really religious, like when I get into a place where it's like super religious, I intentionally offend because I'm allergic.
Speaker 1:So that was your allergies acting up.
Speaker 2:That was just my allergic reaction to like hyper, not only religious but very patriarchal places. They bring the worst out at me. So there's a little bit of that, like you know thing that happens to me.
Speaker 1:That was a great moment and I remember just thinking this is great and then watching how uncomfortable they were. Following you was also equally enjoyable, so my hats off to you. I think is brilliant.
Speaker 2:The most uncomfortable I've ever seen people at a conference with me speaking was when I brought my own tattoo artist and while I was speaking I got a tattoo.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now you want uncomfortable. That's uncomfortable because it was next level. Jeremy, I was in that case. But my very first tattoo on this tattooed arm, my very first one this music notes were done on stage at a conference, at a youth conference in Australia, and I just brought a guy. I said I need a table and a plug. I didn't tell them what I was doing because I knew they'd like totally say no.
Speaker 1:You didn't tell them. No, oh, this is so good. Wait, that was your first tattoo you ever had.
Speaker 2:No, it was the first tattoo on this arm, you know, for the start of the sleeve.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is a great move. Having no idea how you're gonna respond to getting a tattoo, it's like I was doing in front of a group of people. Yeah, that was great, but how did that?
Speaker 2:go over. You know, nobody's ever forgotten that preach, including me.
Speaker 1:Did you get invited back or was it kind of like, yeah, I actually got invited back?
Speaker 2:every year and then I got invited to live there for a while and work with those people. So it went really well. But I think it was helpful to have plausible deniability by them too. So it was kind of a gift to them that I, when they didn't know it was happening, they could sort of they're like well, we didn't know it was happening and we just gave her power.
Speaker 1:We knew.
Speaker 2:Right, that's right. She just asked for a plug and a table. We didn't know that was gonna translate into a tattoo, but it was funny because the entire worship like five people out of the worship band got tattooed. After that, you know, they all lined up. Oh, it does, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well done.
Speaker 2:Yeah for tension. I'm just saying if you want tension spots and communication, there's a lot of those.
Speaker 1:You've never been lacking on creating good, healthy tension in your communication. That's what I appreciate about you. Okay, I wanna begin with a question that I love asking our guests on the show. I'm curious as to where you go with this how has your faith changed over the last 10 years? And I love this question because I think a growing faith is a faith that's constantly learning new things, shedding new things, and sometimes people think Christianity is you get all your right beliefs figured out, then you lock them in and you die right, and so I love to show people. What does growing faith look like? What is the last 10 years of your journey? What has changed for you?
Speaker 2:Wow, I mean, I don't even know how to answer this, because I feel like I've been being born again and again and again and again.
Speaker 2:So like, born again being this very religious phrase that well, it's been made religious but it literally is Jesus's invitation to a religious leader to be born of the spirit. So oftentimes when people use the word born again, they talk to unbelievers, like people who are and they're like you could be born again, like as though that was the invitation from Jesus to an unbeliever and really the invitation was to a religious leader to be born of the spirit. So like, and the religious leader the reason why it even came up was he's like how are you doing all this? Like the religious leaders, like, how are you doing this? And then, how are you living this way? And like, kind of could taste and see from Jesus this other way of life. And then Jesus said, well, how you do this as you get born again.
Speaker 2:And so I feel like it's a nonstop, Like if born again is to be born of the spirit, so to see things different ways, to understand, or just to have your mind blown and your heart open, and your you know. So this has been happening for me. Oh, here comes the wine.
Speaker 1:So the wine is being delivered, thank you.
Speaker 2:Tara, here it is. Guys, this has had the alcohol removed, because you know I'm representing the tea tollers. And Jeremy, do you know about the sober curious movement? That's kind of all the rage.
Speaker 1:Tell me.
Speaker 2:Well, it's just it's called sober curious and it's like a generation kind of like wondering if there are ways to enjoy life without alcohol, and so it's this whole thing Anyway.
Speaker 1:So it's called Eden Vale right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, eden Vale, it's a Pinot, it's a Pinot Noir.
Speaker 1:Where is this from? It's all removed, right.
Speaker 2:It's red, ripe and dark fruit characters, hints of earthiness. Oh, you're gonna like it. You're gonna be able, I'm gonna be able to taste.
Speaker 1:the syrup Pinot Noir is actually my favorite.
Speaker 2:It's my favorite grape for wine Right sweet cherry and mulberry fruit. How can you not like this?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I think we need to. We need to have you pour yourself in the moment. You gotta finish the. She's finishing the bubbly first, for those who are listening only.
Speaker 2:Well, at first I was practicing being like Jesus and I was hoping, if I put this bubbly in my glass and drank it, it would turn into wine.
Speaker 1:but You're not.
Speaker 2:I'm not there yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're still working on that.
Speaker 2:Once I get my potty mouth sorted, I think I put too much in my glass. That's why I don't try to we gotta give it a little swirl.
Speaker 1:Give it a little swirl there. You gotta aerate it. Yeah, you gotta aerate it. Okay, little twirl. And here's one of the things I think is actually super cool. That's happening now and we're gonna have more episodes where this happens, where I'm drinking and the person with me is drinking something other than alcohol. Cause I think it's great to show people. Number one you can have conversations around alcohol and approach it from all different points of view where it doesn't have to be. You know, everyone has to drink if I'm drinking, but the extreme on the other side is okay. If I don't drink, no one around me can drink, and I think it's cool to model hey, we can have a conversation together where one of us is drinking with the other one's not, and we both respect each other and it's cool. So what do you think?
Speaker 2:This is delicious.
Speaker 1:Is it really?
Speaker 2:Like I'm shocked I thought it was gonna be horrific Cause. Like I'm like alcohol free wine, why, why I could just drink bubbly, you know what I'm saying. Like, why, but this is delicious, I really love it.
Speaker 1:I'm so intrigued right now.
Speaker 2:I wish you were here and you could taste this. I think you'd really really like it.
Speaker 1:Edenville huh.
Speaker 2:All right, where is this from? Oh, it's from Australia. Eden Veil beverages is from New South Wales, australia.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:There you go, and it's just got to import to Vancouver here Way to go, australia Cheers.
Speaker 1:You were just embodying what it means to be born again. You just had your taste buds renewed. See how I transitioned you back there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my mind's been blown over and over again. Actually, I have a season of my podcast called Mind Blown and it's where I interview all these theologians and practitioners of all these different things and just ask them, like what's blown your mind? And they like and it's just, I, literally, like my co-host, james, and I just were like this is incredible. Like every time, we're just like my mind's blown again.
Speaker 2:So I think some of the ways my faith has shifted, like in big ways, is I've shifted from you know I think I might have already been there but didn't know it but out of a depraved view of the world I've moved to original goodness and original beauty.
Speaker 2:So out of seeing the world, out of original sin, into original goodness, that's been a huge shift for me and it's been a shift in terms of how I view people, including myself.
Speaker 2:So that has moved me in beautiful ways actually to explore how I think Jesus sees me through the lens of original goodness, not original sin, and to kind of work together on the restoration project that is this original goodness that I was created for and in, and so that's been just a beautiful. What is required is for me to shed a lot of judgment, a lot of self-loathing, a lot of behavior modification in the name of you know, jesus, you know, if only I could be better or act better or get these things in order or whatever. It's allowed me to really be curious over, judgmental about what's happening in me, but then also what's happening in others and what's happening in the world. It's given me just a great like. I've fallen in love again with like, in a fresh, beautiful way, with the creator, who is God, who creates out of and for and with goodness. Yeah, so that's been a massive shift, I think, in the last 10 years.
Speaker 1:Did you come out of Calvinism?
Speaker 2:Nope, I'm an Armenian, so I've always thought, you know what is it? One of the founders of the Salish Army, catherine Booth, who people say that I have a bit of a affinity towards she used to call it the bear of Calvinism, you know so? No, not at all, but I do believe that the world's going to hell and people are terrible at their core has filtered into every you know, definitely evangelical Christian framework and people being, you know, justly exposed to the wrath of God. You know, yeah, I just think it filters in and I don't think we understand just how destructive that thought has been to the core of what the good news even is and who Jesus is and how we see each other and how we see ourselves.
Speaker 1:I wholeheartedly agree and you know, I think so much of the messaging that people hear in church is ultimately just breaking down any sense of self-esteem that they have. You know, your garbage, your trash God can't look at you. But good news, you know he's willing to save you. And you know, and you hear that over and over, it's like I'm garbage, I'm trash, I'm filthy, you know. And then we wonder why we don't thrive and why we have such a hard time believing. You know, if that is true, why does Jesus want me then, like why you know, if I'm as bad as I keep getting told that I am, and yeah, I love that. And you know, I definitely applaud that and everything I'm doing is trying to communicate the opposite of actually Jesus really is pleased with you and God delights in you, and I think that's a much better motivator for letting the spirit take over. Then shame and guilt and wallowing in people.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's also why it's also why, like there's, there are moments in people's lives that are so defining, like the birth of a child. You know, when anybody holds a newborn baby, something happens, something transcendent happens. I think you don't have to have words for it, whatever. Like I've seen, like you know, very bad men, like literally, like, if you're looking for depravity, I could show you a couple that I'm like they're testing my theory. But like pretty, you know, scary guys just ball like a baby holding their sons for the first time. You know, just, and I'm like, what is that that happens with a newborn baby? Like what is, what is that? You could sit a baby. I also have this theory about like babies are like fireplaces where you could just sit a baby in a room and everybody will gather around and watch the baby.
Speaker 2:Why? What is that Like? What is going on there? What is the transcendent thing that we're experiencing? God's creative goodness. And I remember, you know, I had this thing I used to do with my son every night Moses, my youngest where I would say like who made you? And he'd say God made me. And I say, how'd he make you? And he'd say he made me good. And I'd say he sure did, honey. He made you, he made you, he made you wonderful, he made you good. And then I'd leave the room and I'd be overcome with emotion and I would hear God's light in me who made you, daniel? And I'd say you made me. And he'd be like how'd I make you? And I'd be like he made me bad.
Speaker 2:I'm terrible, I'm horrible. Like I would go to my husband and say, like when does he turn?
Speaker 1:bad and my husband was like what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:And I told him about this thing and he'd be like I'm like when does he turn bad, like when does that happen? And my husband literally deadpan. He just looks at me and goes. I think it's about eight.
Speaker 1:I think if you can make it to eight, you've done a great job.
Speaker 2:But I'm like, what? Like? Why haven't we? And again, this is this anyway. So this has been blowing my mind, just how revolutionary this is, when we can actually agree with God about who we are and what that means to be beloved and to be known. And to be fully known and fully loved is the liberation of every human, and that is the good news. That's what Jesus wants to do. He wants you to be fully known and fully loved. And, gosh, as soon as you can enter that, or at least taste it a little bit, you can start feeling the liberation, and that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:Well, I think my revelation of the Atonement, the sacrificial death of Christ, that's really shifted Again from a predominantly like again this is just connected to this like how we see God and how we see ourselves from this kind of punitive act to satisfy the wrath of God to this demonstration of co-suffering, self-giving love, and how that's an unstoppable force for transformation and resurrection in the world and that's what we're invited to model and participate in. So that's been a big shift and theologically, I guess you know those are a couple, they're fairly big.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. That's a good answer. Okay, so you're involved in some way in a ton of different pursuits and we're gonna ping-pong around a few of them. How did you get into this? How did you get into thinking, like I like launching creative exploits, like this is a thing I'm gonna do and you primarily you know, as I'm understanding this do this through boundless. But how did this become a thing for you? How did you discover, like I like launching things?
Speaker 2:It's accidental. I'm a bewildered entrepreneur. I don't know actually it usually is I've got something that's like stirring in me. I would say Like there's like a thing that's going on. And then I meet somebody who also has that thing stirring in them, and then we try some things out and then, before we know it, this thing has become a thing and I'm like, oh, look at that, we started a thing and then what happened eventually? What happened was this just keeps happening, you know.
Speaker 2:So eventually I think we needed to or and actually by eventually, I mean this year we started a thing called Boundless Enterprise, which is the support center for all of these new initiatives and it collaborates and connects and like, creates mutual flourishing in these places where we share resources and trainings and ideas. So we're not always creating things from scratch every single time, but we have a bit more of and what we did really to do that well is we just reverse engineered how I started all these things and then kind of put it together, back together in a way that didn't have me at the center, but has this team at the center and can be more sustainable and scalable. So I'm still figuring this out, jeremy, but I definitely have an entrepreneurial natural gift and in love, I love that process of discovery and I love collaborating, I love partnerships. Yeah, so I guess that's how you have.
Speaker 1:You have birthed many beautiful things into this world in addition to your family, so it's cool just to see how you've contributed and how you continue to do that. So I want to dive into a few of them. One of them is called the Women's Speakers Collective and I would just say, for anyone who has spent any time in the church world, even if it's just a little bit, you've likely realized at some point or hopefully you have that women are woefully underrepresented and are usually not invited at the table, are usually not given the same level of influence or input or leadership or opportunities, to disname a few. You have created the Women's Speakers Collective, which is about liberating voices of women around the globe. In order to help address this. I'm curious how has this been received by the church at large? I mean, you're empowering a voice that, let's be honest, the patriarchal system doesn't want to be empowered. So how has this been received?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's a mixed bag. I mean, in the usual culprits who are really specific about we don't want women's voices, obviously they don't participate, which works out for us fine too. And I think I've gotten pretty. I think in all my pursuits around helping empower other people who lack power or lack access, I think I've gotten a little bit stronger, if that's even possible, in my like I'm not playing around. So I've switched from I used to tell women you are where you are, you do what you can, don't sweat it, just work in your gifting and then let God. I used to say stuff like that just to kind of like help appease everybody, and now I'm just like just leave, really Just leave, leave. I just don't have time, jeremy, there's so much to do and there's so many different ways to do it. So I think it's the end of an era.
Speaker 2:I believe we're at the end of the institutional, denominalized kind of framework of church and I think a new era has begun, and that new era is much more entrepreneurial. It's much more deeply rooted in spiritual formation of practices. It's much more honest, it's much more rooted around hospitality and openness and generosity and mission, and I don't think there's a better people more equipped for that than most women I know, and I think the reason they're more equipped in this is because they've been left out of systems and structures. So much of like the work you have to do as a man who has had access to that and could do that is you've had to undo it and you've had to unlearn it, and then you have to like let it go, whereas women have never had it, so they don't have to unlearn anything, they can just like take off. And so I've really been, and this is it's not only true in the church, that women aren't welcome or offered a similar platform, it's also true in the business realm, it's also true.
Speaker 2:So there's lots of people that come to like what I call we call these things boot camps, which they're like two day jam packed everything we know about communication and also building like a collective. So we're doing this together. But anyway, we have tons of people come like we have mayor, the mayor of a city comes because he has to give speeches at the city thing. We have teachers come, we have professional business people come, we have nonprofit leaders come and we have church people come. So it's sort of this like there's a lot of speaking going on, and I think this podcast is a great example.
Speaker 2:Like, I just think there are other ways of communicating now that are remarkably effective and you can create your own platform now in a way that you never could before. And I mean, this is one of the crumbling parts of the old era is like you can't control the narrative anymore, so women can actually begin to find their voice. So a large part of the boot camp is about confidence. It's about repairing what's been broken in many women's in terms of mindset. It's been equipping and capacity, collective building. But then in terms of platform, like, my aim is not to center women on platforms that don't want them. Those platforms are ending anyway. I mean I just too bad for you. I think you're missing out, but there but is to actually empower and equip women to release their voices wherever they can in ways that are life giving to the world.
Speaker 1:So so good. Okay, let's dive into that a little bit more. Let's imagine you're speaking to you right now, there's a woman listening to this or watching this, and she's in one of those environments and she feels that tension you said just a moment ago you used to encourage this. Now you say go. How? I mean, like, is there a hey, try this, this and this. And then, if it's a no, you go. Or how does that person know, Like, am I in an okay place or is it time to go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's tricky and that has to be discerned. If you are looking for company, though, there is a global coaching monthly membership, and you can get on there and have this conversation with other women who've been there, who've done that, who've processed things. You can pray together. It's like it literally is meant to design a community of support for women around the world, so that's once a month, and it's a beautiful place. I've heard from many people that is like that piece that's missing in a lot of even when women are doing the hard, you know, work of like staying faithful.
Speaker 2:This extra, you know, sort of supportive community can be really a game changer there, but it can also be helpful for discernment too, where people are like no, that's not okay, you cannot do three jobs for half of the price of one man, and you know, in all kinds of things I mean there's just so many different things, but I would say that those pain points and again this is back to this, like salvation being this born again and again and again opportunity and experience where it might have been okay at one time for you and God might have called you to that. But actually maybe the spirit now is seeing something else and maybe the spirit is showing you things where what used to be a prophetic witness is now a complicity with a system, and I think that shift is upon us. I felt the shift in my life where I used to just, you know, I'd speak anywhere, anytime, to anyone, as long as I wasn't censored, you know, as long as I could say what it is that I felt like God wanted me to say. But now, not so much. Now I feel like for me to speak in certain places, at certain times with certain peoples is complicity in systems and structures that harm, and that's a new thing for me.
Speaker 2:I never gave that a thought, not ever, and now I am thinking about that why? Well, probably much of the work that I do, but also I think it's just another version of revelation, like just God is going like here. I wanna show you some more, I wanna show you some more, I wanna show you some more. So I think you have to. Really, I wish there was like a checklist, and if these three things are checked off, then you go. I think it's much more of like listen to the spirit and listen to your own self too, and as you begin to cultivate that healthy relationship, you'll know. You'll know what to do.
Speaker 1:That's so good. I've found in my own journey too. You know, when you're in an unhealthy environment, at times there's a lot of gaslighting going on, where then you start to think I'm crazy, you know, this is normal, you know, and something's wrong with me. And it definitely can foster that sense. And that's where the community comes in to go. You're not crazy, what they're telling you is crazy, you know. And you almost need the outside voice to go like no, don't say yes to that. You're like, oh yeah, yeah, that is as crazy as I think it is. And so, yeah, women's speaker collective, if you're listening to this and you're going, I need that community. It exists, it's out there. I think that's super cool.
Speaker 1:Okay, as I was prepping for this, I discovered something I didn't even know you were doing this. I knew mostly things you're doing. This one's new to me. You have a very unique project called Imbi, which is a tiny home movement in my backyard. I read about this. What I'm like. I got it. This one's wild. Tell us about Imbi. Is that how you say it? How do you say it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, imbi, you know people are more familiar with Nimbi, which is not in my backyard, so we intentionally were like no, no, in my backyard, that's where all change is gonna start. You know, I'm so excited about this, jeremy. This one is just like sometimes it keeps me up at night and so exciting. But it's basically taking all of the negative realities of the creation of suburbia. So I mean, suburbia was literally built with exclusion in mind. It was built to champion autonomy, competition, exclusivity, white supremacy. The origin of suburbia in America, particularly what's stated, is that Louis Town, which is the first ever suburbia created, is still 98% white. You know, fascinating.
Speaker 2:Anyway we just decided what if we subverted those things? What if we actually said you know what? This isn't working. Suburbia is not working. It's not even working for the participants who are benefiting from suburbia. There's like the rates of loneliness, the crisis of loneliness, and mental health and depression and anxiety are through the roof.
Speaker 2:I think COVID showed us that the way we're living isn't healthy and isn't sustainable and isn't good, and at the same time that all that's happening for the people who have houses in suburbia, there's an affordable housing crisis in the world and we've never seen in the Western world this kind of like crisis of affordable housing. So we thought, wait a minute, these two things go together People who need welcome and people who need to live differently. And so, instead of exclusion, we talk about inclusion. Instead of autonomy, we talk about mutual dependency and what that means to flourish together. And we celebrate this new way of potential living. And I think you know it's a bit of a recipe. So it has five building blocks and there's a training program. There's a mighty networks set up.
Speaker 2:You can join again a monthly community, and I think part of what Ibi's job is is to just reawaken people's imagination for things it could be. When we want to talk theology, we can talk about how God defines family, and it's different from what I would call the idolatry of the nuclear family, which has really again championed exclusivity and like all these things that are actually harming us. That God's version of family or kinship is to welcome and is to be bigger than your nuclear family and is to be, you know, radically inclusive and to be mutually flourishing. And so I think we have a chance to push back against the dominant culture that actually struggling and then also to co-create and reimagine a different future. And I have this, like you know, just lovely dream that we could literally subvert the suburbs and change neighborhoods everywhere.
Speaker 1:Okay, so get into the nuts and bolts. So you build a unit, a little house in your backyard.
Speaker 2:Yep, secondary dwelling unit, so it could be a house. Sometimes people build something over their garage, you know, but the idea is a second dwelling unit. Some people places call these garden homes, tiny houses, laneway houses, like there's all these different but basically secondary dwelling unit to put it in your backyard and then you make it available for affordable rent. And there's a person who needs affordable housing and there's what we call a circle of support. So there's in B that is helping in all training, all these things and dreaming of this project together.
Speaker 2:There's the home owner, there's the in B dweller, you know, so the person that's dwelling, and there is part of the circle not at the center of the circle, because we believe in mutual flourishing communities and then a nonprofit, usually that's worked with that person. We have a Christian non charity that helps us with financial planning so that equity could be part of the, so they're not always on the hook for rent but there's a way for them to start building their equity. And then a community, like you know, whatever a faith community of some kind, and that is kind of the full circle of support. We believe that if you can set up that circle of support with an actual tiny house in a backyard, a redefined family, you've got yourself a successful, mutual flourishing situation for long term. So that's the other thing too, is we aim for at least a 10 year arrangement between the in B dweller and the backyard.
Speaker 1:Just a 10 year rental.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like a 10 year. We would call it a covenant or a contract between the family, between the parties, to say we're in this for 10 years so that there is the stability and at the end of 10 years we're working on. What we're really dreaming about is some financial models where there is home ownership, you know so, almost like a micro home ownership that gives people a chance at getting into an upwardly mobile ladder of out of poverty and Anyway, so well. But all that's kind of just still imaginary. We have three cities that are modeling this, this recipe or model right now, which is kind of fun, in different ways and with different, but we always have in be exists for the most vulnerable, for trafficking to prevent, I mean for sorry, for houselessness, to prevent it. So this is newcomers, it's kids aging out of foster care, it's single moms, you know, people exiting sometimes the correctional justice system. Those are the most at risk of affordable housing.
Speaker 1:Super cool. Okay, what are the? What are the cities? Are you able to share that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, minneapolis is one city. They're doing 10 tiny house in be projects with I think it's the YMCA and their kids aging out of foster care, which is really kind of neat. As as well as they're doing some church properties, are starting to actually think of their church properties as a means of welcome. So we're we have a couple of projects in the in the hopper for church Properties, which is a whole thing. Talk to me about it, it'd be awesome to. Hamilton is a city just outside of Toronto and it has already. We built. We built a tiny house there and our first Dweller should be moving in there any second. I think we're just waiting for the stove or something to get in there, but it's. It's built and ready to rock. And then there's another church and Backyard strategy. So church backyard and also people in the church's backyard in Welland, which is another town in Canada, in Ontario, yeah, super cool.
Speaker 1:I love that idea and I was reading about. I'm like man, that is the. That is like the last thing people in the suburbs would want, you know. I mean like like the traditional name, like we don't want them in here, which is why it's so beautiful, it's so Radical, counter cultural, like hey, let's actually expose some of the inadequacies of this. And yeah, I think that's also though.
Speaker 2:I think what, what the pushback usually is? They might. So I have a lot of experience in nonprofits and housing and all these I've built, all these different housing models through the selfish army might work with them, but what I would say is the pushback is usually the bigness of it. You know, like, so we want a group home, and they're like we don't want a group home filled with like 10, you know Whatever, but it's the smallness of it that's so subversive. Right, it's just one person in your, in your backyard, but then you as part of your family, and then the community.
Speaker 2:So what's been really fascinating is as these people so most of the build for this first pilot in Hamilton was volunteer based, because you know we don't have the funding yet, we're just building a new world is not here yet, jeremy, we're waiting, but we're we're volunteering. So these people are coming by and they're asking, like what are you? What is this about? Like these guys from the city, like the guy, the plumber that came in to had to do the digging of the plumbing stuff, like, and they're just like, can you tell me when you're doing another one, I can come for free next time? Like they're just so captured by this idea and the community's been so supportive of this idea that I think it's a. I think it's just small enough that it gets under that sense of like we're being invaded, do you know, or like there's all of them and they're us and them, because we're actually recreating the lines around us, right. So, anyway, that's my hope is that it's small enough that it becomes that kind of subversive tool.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. I love it. It'll be exciting to watch you talk about people who are at risk, and I know it's a huge part of your heart and Kind of a common thread of a lot of what you're doing. One of the projects you you do is called brave global, where you're working to prevent human trafficking. In my experience in the church world, this is something probably a lot of people either have no clue about or dramatically Minimize in their mind. What, what the reality is. What have you learned through that work? And you know what are the things that more people need to be aware of when it comes to fighting human trafficking today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing about brave global is, I think, when we think of human trafficking, we think about it happening somewhere else and you know it, cultures that are more primitive or poor or whatever, and we don't really realize that actually trafficking is happening here all the time. And so I think brave global, one of its big Emphasis and work is to fight domestic trafficking, which is to say in your local community, where trafficking is happening, where girls are being exploited particularly, all the time that there are ways we can fight it. And there, you know, it's a whole community to traffic a girl. It really does. It takes a system of exclusion, it takes, you know, all all kinds of things to traffic somebody eventually, and it takes a community to to welcome them back, you know, and to prevent them from being trafficked. So it's also an invitation for everybody to you know, we're not all.
Speaker 2:Liam Nielsen, you know certain skills, right, we can't. You know we're not charging into brothels and like, right, you know, like there's not, and I think that's what happens is we painted this like such, this crazy picture of trafficking. That's so. It's above everybody's pay grade. So, one, the numbers are so horrible we can't stop it and two, I don't have any of the skills and it's crazy for me to think I do, but really, when we think about Preventing trafficking, what we're doing is we're just saying to the people who are invisible really for the most part, which are mostly, you know, 80% of all domestic sex trafficking victims. So American born trafficking victims, 80% of them come from foster care. So, you know, when we discovered that stat, we were like okay, this is horrific, but also not that complicated. And also every single one of those girls has a case file.
Speaker 2:So this problem that was an invisible, evil reality in our cities is actually a visible, has a visible solution, and the solution is what if we got there first?
Speaker 2:What if we got there first?
Speaker 2:So Brave Global is really just saying to communities Everywhere, you could get there first and if you got there first, there is a way that we could change the trajectory of these targeted and vulnerable people. And so that's what we work is we work on coaching communities to be the solution before the problem occurs, and it's actually one of the most beautiful things to witness, to go to and and there's all kinds of different ways to do Brave, by the way, you can have an event, which we call a catalytic event, which is just this like empowerment conference for girls that begins to connect the people, girls. That begins to connect the doc between resources for them and connections for them, and even just a narrative of empowerment. You have choices and capacities that maybe you don't even know and have never been told to you, but allow us to begin. But then also there's like Brave circles of support and there's like these journals and there's a podcast. You know all these different ways that people can stay engaged and begin to change the trajectory of girls lives.
Speaker 1:So cool. I love that you have a spiritual practice that I have seen you incorporate Into most of the things that you do and in many of the speaking engagements that I've seen you do, you incorporate that you call it Infinitum and you describe it as a way of living deeply. You were part of the team that established infinitum about seven years ago. What's the 101 on this? What is someone who's never heard of infinitum? How would you describe it to us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that, uh, loving Jesus, you know, is not just an esoteric exercise, it's, uh, an intentional living. So when I mean by that, it doesn't really matter what you think about Jesus or what you believe about Jesus. What matters is how you follow and and how you practice the way of Jesus on a daily basis. And that my only, my only experience of a transcendent Existence or like a meaningful life, is when I literally practice the way of Jesus. And so, for me, you know, you know mazlo, he, he regretted at the end of his life, his hierarchy ended in self actualization. And I don't know if you know this, but this is blowing my mind. Lately there's an article like there's he wrote about this where he said I really didn't get it, because self actualization is not the top of human need, it's self transcendence that's at the top. And, um, until you actually Are part of something bigger than you, until you've lost yourself. I mean, this is what Jesus says, right, when you, when you lose your life, you get it. Until you get there, you're never even, you have not achieved anything. You know, if you, if you haven't read Matthew Perry's Autobiography, you know, and some of his uh pr he did before it came out. He's just like I don't know how to say this because no one will believe me, but I'm telling you, you can get everything you ever thought you wanted and still be completely unsatisfied, um, and then, of course, you know, we watched this happen over and over again, but we still believe this myth. So, self transcendence so how do you practice self transcendence? Like, how do you actually get over yourself? This is the great level.
Speaker 2:I have a lot of problems in this area, um, and so the infinitum was designed as a practice to get over yourself and to center uh, jesus and the way of Jesus and then to practice that every day. So it's a daily intentional prayer. So I pray a prayer and it's three postures that I practice. So, again, this isn't about getting right or wrong. It's just about practicing Uh and their surrender, generosity and mission or others focused living. And uh, and then I, I meet with another human being intentionally around this practice. Um, am I full of shit or am I really living this way? Um, what is actually happening on the inside of me? Like, what's the thing behind the thing? Not just the behavior modification, but why? What's going on underneath here? Like, can we lean into this beautiful transcendent love that can transform us, and In how do we do that together. And so it's about forging spiritual friendships and um seeing the fruit of that in our, in our lives.
Speaker 1:Well, just personally for you, how has this shaped your experience with Jesus?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's transformed it. I, I literally have never been more, uh, like, amazed, like I've never been more in awe of who Jesus is and who Jesus was. You know, I've never been more, um, I think, aware. So the other thing, this thing is done, and I think this has to do with the way our brains work near Neurologically, because my intent, my prayer, at my daily prayer, is um put to postures, put to physical postures, so I use my body to pray and I think that just that alone is literally like rewiring my brain or something.
Speaker 1:It's super cool. I've been a part of. Numerous times you've had a group do this together and it's is a very cool experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So if you imagine, if you do that every day like you end up becoming what your intentions are, right, you end up going where you intend to go. So if my intentions are set with my body and my mind and my heart in the morning to be surrendered, and if my intentions are set to be open and Freely receiving and also giving, if my intentions are set to say to the outsider you're welcome in my life, you know, it's like my awareness level of the divine invitation I have on a daily basis to surrender and to Open and to you know, center other people. It's just off the charts. I mean, I'm just like this is a very exciting way to live and and so I, just for that alone it's been, it's been remarkable experience for me.
Speaker 1:That's very cool. You were a teaching pastor at a church that was led by a mutual friend of ours and you were instrumental in bringing accountability to the leadership of that church as they dealt with his moral failure and abuse. For people who have followed your story and recent years, that was a that was something you were very notable for and a lot of people were watching how you handled that. Um, you regularly build support and advocacy for survivors of abuse through another one of your projects called Hagar's voice, and this is something I've watched more recently do this. Um, what are some takeaways you found through that work that Like what is needed for change in the church today based on the abuse and the failures that we're seeing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, it's been a really painful journey, um, personally, and costly too, and worthy, so cheers. Um, and Hagar's voice was not like a oh hey, wouldn't this be cool, one of those initiatives? It was like what are we going to do? Because we're inundated with survivors of abuse calling, asking for help and we don't know what to do. As sort of they watched this story and start, I think people started to get the idea of oh, that's what abuse is. We were just like inundated and we're like I don't know, we don't know how to help these people. So there was kind of a response to a deep need. Um, I'd say a couple things. Uh, one I think the church has to get it straight that its job is to protect the sheep. Its primary role is to be safe um.
Speaker 2:That's its primary role. And so what? Right now, the impulse of the church is to protect the brand, or to protect itself, or to protect its leader. But actually the role of the church is to protect the weak, is to be a safe place for the sheep, is to so, first of all, primarily it, the church's role, needs to. You know, people need to have a metanoia, a literal collective repentance or an awakening about what it's there for. The church does not exist to protect itself. That is literally the opposite example of christ. I mean, it's not rocket science, guys, so that's one. So that natural impulse which I think we just bought, this terrible lie that the church's role is to protect itself at the expense of people, I mean it's like literally dumb. That's a demonic church. Everybody run away. The church's role is to protect the people at the expense of itself. That's the posture of christ.
Speaker 1:And yet I would say, as you say, that it sounds like a no-brainer, like duh, but there's a lot of churches that are that and maybe people don't realize it.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, and maybe even the people in the churches don't realize it until this happens. I think that's the thing is because they would all go of course, of course, of course. And then an allegation comes and everybody goes into full lockdown and won't talk to anybody and won't disclose anything and like everything goes underground. And then everybody, like I mean it's just people sign nda's and they just act like crazy people and you're just like what is happening? The fear level Is shocking and I think what I've discovered is that at the heart of it is fear. You know it is fear at the heart of all this. Of course, fear is the great oppressor, so, but at the heart of this is a misunderstanding of its mission. Um, and I think that's, you know that's, that's a big one. And then I'd say a second one is just this If we wanted to just work on one thing that might help in this area across the board, it's just transparency.
Speaker 2:I mean we're just terrified of the light, which again is like I mean I can't even. I feel like I'm in an SNL skit. You know, like what could help the church? I don't know, serve the people? I don't know be the light. You know like, oh my gosh, is it this basic? But yeah, we're so scared of the light and I don't understand why I literally I'm like the only people scared of the light are the people who like the dark, so that might tell us something too. So I you know transparency, I think. Recently I said I think every church board should rewrite all of its pastoral job discussions and in there there's a disclosure that says if there is any abuse or moral failing happening in this.
Speaker 2:You know while you're in this role we're gonna tell everybody, we're just gonna tell it like we're not gonna protect you when this happens. We're gonna protect the church, we're gonna protect the people.
Speaker 1:That's what?
Speaker 2:just put that, just put that literally in the contract and then see who doesn't apply for the job, and then you're good, like, make the church safe. And then, if it does happen and it's a surprise to everybody involved you've already stated what you're gonna do and you've already stated that your allegiance is to making this place a safe place for the people who exist here, rather than protecting the leadership and the brand of the organization. Anyway, I think there's a couple little things that would just help shift some things, wouldn't it?
Speaker 1:Have you had any church like, actually do that that you've seen?
Speaker 2:Not yet I haven't really. This might be one of the first times I've said this like super publicly.
Speaker 1:Yes, let's get it out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I really think, because what we would do is even oh wow.
Speaker 1:I gave you an apology. You earned it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think even if all it was was like setting that intention ahead of time, so that when it comes down to that moment, no one's worried about where their allegiance is, because they've already stated their allegiance is to the people, yeah, I think that would help a lot. So I'll let that know. But Hagar's voice is working on advocacy for and with the church. So there are churches saying how do we do this better? What should we do? How do we prevent this from happening? We are working towards helping churches.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in my experience, like you know, I still I swim in the pastoral waters. You know, most of my career friends are pastors today and many of them, you know, have left the ministry for different reasons. But I still have a foot in both camps. And it seems to me, as I try to make sense of like, why? Like, why does this keep happening?
Speaker 1:I just see a parallel in, you know, ancient Israel wanting a king.
Speaker 1:And you know, we want to be like the other nations, we want to be able to rally around this person and, vicariously, if our king's doing well, we're doing well and we can.
Speaker 1:You know we'll add an intermediary, you know, between us and God.
Speaker 1:And it just literally seems like that's become so much of the role of the pastor today of be our king, be our champion, be the one that we all rally around, and in the process you're adding distance right, like, yeah, you tell us what God says, we don't need to hear directly from God anymore.
Speaker 1:And it's like, fundamentally, like you read that story, you know, in the Old Testament, it doesn't play out well, like it didn't go well, it didn't deliver what they want, and yet I see it today in the church, it's the same desire, like if our pastor is this rock star and if he's, you know, on the speaking circuit and I'm using a he intentionally, you know and if he's writing books and like. There's just this sense of like I'm a part of something awesome, rather than what is the nature of the community that you're a part of, and I just think we've gotten it backward and you just keep hearing these stories, you know, and so I'm so thankful that you're a part of Hagar's voice in doing this, because it's like this work needs to happen, and it's often not a safe space for the sheep and where did the sheep go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. And that and what you're addressing is a systemic issue that doesn't just perpetuate abusive leadership, it promotes it and needs it, you know, to function. And then you're in a whole heap of trouble after that Cause then, like, this thing not only has to protect this person out of like, allegiance to this person, but this thing has to protect this person out of survival for itself, cause it set its whole self out on this person and that's like a toxic, abusive level that I don't even you know. It's just and it's, but it's so prevalent. I mean, that's a recipe of so many what I say, herky Layen, white men saving the world, with communities centered around them.
Speaker 2:And I'd say one of the things I've learned in hindsight is just to pay attention. I pay attention a little bit more now to who's being centered, and if it's always the white man being centered for everything all the time, it's the classic toxic king based culture that will only harm, including that man, by the way, and I think that's the thing people, people always like. Oh, she just doesn't like men or whatever. I'm like I feel sorry for men who are trapped in a paradigm where they can't be known and loved and that really they're just using-.
Speaker 1:It's a spiritual form and keep it going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they're just being used and using themselves, even Like, but it's, it's a horrific. You know you're feeding your ego, but at the expense of your soul, and it's. It must be a terrible way to live. I can't even imagine living that way. Like I feel so bad for for guys trapped in the system too.
Speaker 1:Okay, so related to that. And then this is you. You kind of hinted at this earlier. Do you ever worry in? And you say that you do. But I'm curious, you know, when you come in as a speaker, there's a sense of endorsement you bring if you go to a church, right? So if a church brings you in, you say, yes, I will speak. You're adding some sense of my sample of approval. I said yes to that. I've got to imagine that you most of the churches I would suspect you go. I have a few concerns of this or that, or you know things that you go. Yeah, I wouldn't do it that way, or that kind of I don't know about that. How often do you decline speaking engagements and for what reasons? Like when you think about now, these days, being more strategic about it, I'm really curious. Like what does that look like?
Speaker 2:I honestly don't know how. You know, some of it's just scheduling stuff. So I've always declined about 65, 70% of my invitations are declined just out of scheduling stuff. So that helps. But in these more recent days I think I've one is, I think you know, covid.
Speaker 2:When COVID happened and everybody that did what I did were shut down and were all panicked and I was just relieved. So I started paying attention just to my own pace and, you know, self-care and just like is this actually a healthy practice to fly around all the time and not be present? And so I slowed down a lot after COVID, intentionally and just kept it a little slower. And then I would say this new level of awareness, I think, in terms of what we're talking about, what I've been through and what I've seen and the harm of it, has given me a little bit more of like a caution or like a pause. So before I go like, yeah, that would be excellent, you know, like whatever cheers, because I'm a seven. So I'm like, yeah, of course, like let's make it happen, why not? It'll be fun. Those are all my initial impulses for pretty much everything you know. So, but this season, I think, has given me a bit of a pause around what I want to contribute to and because I do think those systems that are toxic are harmful. They're not just not a good system, they're harmful to people and I don't want to be a perpetuator of harm. Now, every system there's no system that's perfect, none. So I have done, you know, in my Instagram during COVID, I did like a five signs of a toxic culture and then five ways we can sort of fight against those cultures. And I did that sort of just out of the overflow of my own life of like how do I first of all like just identify the toxicity and what we're feeling and what's happening, and then how do I be part of a change? So that's helped me a lot. Those five signs of a toxic culture. Those have been helpful for me to kind of spot some of those things.
Speaker 2:For the most part, if I'm just going to speak at a place and I'm free to speak, and it works, I go to speak and I just do. I speak what I feel like God told me to speak. So I was at a denominational gathering and it just so happened that one of the pastors from that denomination had reached out to Hagar's voice and had like a abuse allegation against like one of the big executive people of that denomination and so they told their. She told her story on Hagar's voice podcast, which is one of the things we give voice to victims, because that's one of the great tragedies of the church abuse spaces. They just shut down the voice of the victims and so there's nowhere for them to go and then you know who has the microphone right. So it's not a fair exchange.
Speaker 2:So we started this podcast. I remember it was the first podcast out of the gate, so it's not even very well recorded or anything, but I kept seeing this like 1,000 downloads, 2,000 downloads, 3,000. I was like what is going on with this podcast? And then I didn't was not connecting these dots, jeremy, because this is how I roll. And I was in an airport and like the denominational leader called me, you know, and was like we have to talk. And I was like what do we have to talk about? And he goes well, like your, the podcast. And I was like what? I hadn't even listened to the podcast yet because I don't do it. My friend Angela does it and I'm like what podcast? And he goes, the one where, like this woman and any and I was like, well, is it not true? You know, like, is there something on there that she said that wasn't true? And he goes no, no, it's all true.
Speaker 2:Cause it's all been documented.
Speaker 2:It was investigated, it was a whole thing. It was like fully investigated. And I said, well, you know, so it's true. So, like, what's the problem? You know I don't get it. And he's like, well, you're coming to speak at our conference on Wednesday. And I'm like great. And he's like, well, do you have questions for me? Like is it a problem for you to come? And I was like I don't think so. I mean, I think I'm going to give you know what, the, what I feel like God told me to say at your conference, if that's, you know, like I don't see where the conflict is, you know. And he's like, okay, okay, I'll see you on Wednesday. And like it was just like talk about tense.
Speaker 2:And I spoke and that woman actually showed up at that conference and I spoke at that conference on power, you know, and how the Holy spirit gives it to us to use, and, but in the way of Christ. And it was a beautiful I mean it's, you know, a beautiful visitation by God actually happened at that conference while I was there. But I would say that I think I could have and I guess I guess what I'm getting at is that this really, again, is a discerning. This is a discerning season where God is is inviting me to discern what he's asking me to do versus what I should or shouldn't do, and who's worthy and who's unworthy, and who's talk and who's not. It's more just like what is God asking me to do? Because I could have easily said I'm not going to that conference because those guys are systemically, you know.
Speaker 2:but I think God arranged me to go to that conference because I think it's really hard to have somebody like me at that conference and listen to the word of God and feel the spirit, you know, moving us towards a more Christ-like leadership and things like that. So, like I don't want to not do that, I don't want to, like, cut off the spirit from that work. So it's both that Now, whether or not that changed that denomination or they changed their practices, I don't know. But I know I gave it my best shot and I guess that's all we have. So, like it's, you know. But there are other places where I felt very clearly I can no longer partner with you. I'm out all the way out because I felt complicit in endorsing something that wasn't true and that was clearer to me. So it just, you know, I'm just trying to-.
Speaker 1:There's not like a formula. You kind of figure that out, you just do it Again. You were you know you were a teaching pastor at a church that you felt like you couldn't be a teaching pastor anymore. So that obviously got to a level for you that you felt like this is too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, as soon as the church stops telling the truth, you should probably leave.
Speaker 1:Okay, but let's push on that. Don't you think that's happening at more than more churches than that one?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I'm not on staff. I think that's also too like, what's your role? So if I'm coming in sort of as a prophetic witness, the work of God in the world? Is that different from you know? I think there's just all kinds of different things that, and I think it is a discerning season. I think this is part of the error shift Jeremy is.
Speaker 2:I think we're coming out of an era that had a lot of ticked boxes Like and now this isn't what we're. This is actually literally. This is like Paul trying to figure out do I go to Athens or do I go to? And he's like you know, I felt like I was supposed to go here, but then there was a resistance, so now I can't. And now I had a dream last night and a dream told me to go, and I think that's the season I'm at, where there's actually not a map here. I don't have a map here. These maps are all gonna be drawn afterwards. What I do have is I have the full witness of God within me helping direct me, and then I have permission, I think, to try and get it wrong and then figure it out again. But I do think this is like a mapless season, that way, where God's telling us and showing us which.
Speaker 2:I think is why nourishing that relationship is so key, both with God and with ourselves, to really know that we know and our values are sorted and our character is rooted. I think this is why that matters so much in this season.
Speaker 1:That's good. All right, a couple more questions and we'll wrap this up. Have any of your creative pursuits connected you with the LGBTQ plus community?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, when you talk about abuse and you talk about exclusion, you talk about trafficking, you talk about homelessness. You're dealing with marginalized people groups and the LGBTQ plus is a marginalized people group. So they're gonna experience exponential rates of trafficking and exploitation and they're gonna find themselves on the receiving end of much abuse. And it's tragic and it's true.
Speaker 1:So yeah, From your vantage point, how do you envision the church or Christians doing a better job for that community?
Speaker 2:My gosh, I could try anything different. There's your quote. You're like do anything different, Do something different, Just like whatever your natural impulses do the opposite of that. That's maybe what you could do different.
Speaker 1:It's just like, yeah, that might work.
Speaker 2:It's shocking to me. I was saying when all the vile of the Christian conservatives was coming at Andy Stanley for hosting that conference on conversations, I tweeted a solidarity post with him, cause the other thing I thought is like it's easy to critique people and not always that easy to be in solidarity with people, and I think solidarity with people is a practice we've lost in the cancel culture of social media. But we need to be in solidarity with each other as much as we need to also critique what's wrong. So I felt really like I'm supposed to be in solidarity with this guy not that he needs me to be, but I felt inclined. And I just recalled the story of when I was like first started out in the Christian ministry. I got saved by having a revelation of Jesus in a jail cell. Okay, so like I had a full on crazy supernatural revelation of Jesus in jail and I was totally undeserving, like messed up on many, many levels. I was the perpetrator, not the victim. And then I was volunteering as a guy after I with the Salvation Army at the street outreach youth van and one of the stops where street kids were really in need was in Boys Town, which is where young men were basically selling themselves in street survival, sex work to survive. And they would come on this van and we would have soup or stew or whatever, and over the stew I would say, like, try to get to know them a little bit, you remember. I would say like, hey, can I pray for you? And they'd be like, oh no, you can't pray for me, god hates me. And then, just like, one after one after one, I mean this became enough of the same story that I realized this is a systemic issue. These young kids had come out as gay and were kicked out of their Christian homes and churches. And now we're like selling themselves on the streets of the big city to survive, and their parents had excommunicated them. Like they were.
Speaker 2:And I remember I was only like 18, 19 years old, jeremy, and I was like, what kind of a Christian home is that Like? And I had been the recipient of the grace and mercy and radical inclusion of Jesus in my life, like I had already just received that revelation and invitation from Jesus. And so I could, literally for the life of me I couldn't figure out how this was not translated to these young men. And so, like I mean I did my best to say like guys, that's not true. Like God does not hate you, like it's the opposite of that. God is the opposite of that. And but I mean the damage and the pain and the self-loathing and the destruction that I witnessed even just from that glimpse, oh, it broke my heart. It broke my heart.
Speaker 2:And so part of my solidarity with Andy in hosting that conference is to say, like I wonder I was thinking back and I was like I wish there was somebody in the church that could talk to those parents and tell them that God didn't hate their kids, and tell them that it's okay, like, and to tell them that they're gonna be all right to struggle through this together, but not to abandon and exclude and judge and harm. I mean, my God, I don't know where we anyway, yeah, so I don't know how you follow Jesus and not see radical inclusion as part of the path. It's impossible, through the scriptures, to draw that conclusion. So there's that.
Speaker 1:And yet here we are drawing all the lines in the church today. All right, what is something you're excited about right now?
Speaker 2:What's wrong with me? Oh gosh, what am I excited about right now? Well, you just literally asked me about all my favorite things, and then now I'm excited about something. What am I excited about? Okay, listen, I'm excited about I just started a PhD and I don't know Really you're going to be.
Speaker 1:You didn't have enough going on.
Speaker 2:I might drop out any minute. So don't, I don't have it, I just and I want to study. A thing I think I want to know more about, and it's this divine encounter, or encounter is the primary means of spiritual revelation. And if that's true, then why don't we just do that? So, instead of being information formation people, which has been the primary role of a pastor in the Western church, it's just like my job is to tell you stuff and your job is to learn stuff. If the primary means of spiritual revelation is encounter, then my job shifts from telling you stuff to facilitating you experiencing stuff, and that's what I'd like to. That's what I'm excited about these days. Like it's kind of blowing my mind a bit how I miss this, what it seems now so clear that God's primary means of spiritual revelation is encounter and experience, and we waste so much time trying to tell people stuff when we should really just be inviting them into experience and encounter for themselves.
Speaker 1:Gosh so good.
Speaker 2:So stay tuned I feel like drinking wine at a retreat in Oregon, and finding out more about how that process works and how that might relate to our own lives with God might be a good place to start.
Speaker 1:Cheers, cheers. How do you feel? For that too, I heartily agree. Hey, this has been so good. In closing, anything I didn't ask you that you're like I gotta say this or anything. We skipped over.
Speaker 2:No, we just skipped over how much I like you, jeremy, and the work that you're doing at Communion Co and this podcast and putting up with people who won't drink real wine, although this really tastes like real wine, I'm telling you.
Speaker 1:You've opened the door. I've gotta go try this now. So I know a lot of people are gonna be like what? This is really good. So we're gonna have to go try this. Hey, I'm gonna put in the show links. You can find out more about Danielle at DanielleStricklandcom. You can go to boundlessenterpriseorg. Find out about all of the things that she's launching. We obviously referenced numerous things. You can get connected to all those through those two websites. If we hit on something that you're like I wanna know more about that, there's lots there that she's doing and-.
Speaker 2:Well, I should say we are doing a big pitch right now for financial partners, for boundlessenterpriseorg.
Speaker 2:And you can get taxable receipts if you're in the US or also in Canada. So, boundlessenterpriseorg, slash support If that's something that like. If you hear some of this entrepreneurial, like, yes, we need, it's a season, a new era, where some of that structural stuff's gone and we're exploring what this next era could be and trying to figure out different ways of reaching people and connecting and serving people, and that's something that kind of is like I'm behind that. We would love, love, love and kind of need your support.
Speaker 1:So if that's something that you're prompted to do yes, yeah, yeah yeah Well, seriously, friend, I have thoroughly enjoyed not only our time together today, but just your friendship over the years and watching you lead. I have learned so much from you. I have taken copious notes on how you handle things and you live out your faith. You walk the walk, and we need more people like you. So thank you for all the ways that you have partnered with Jesus in creating truly beautiful things. On that note, we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:I was waiting for a sound effect. I thought you might have a sound effect.
Speaker 1:No serious Sound effects are mainly for humor. That was just Okay, thank, you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Jeremy, I receive it. I'm really excited. Hey, seriously, I've enjoyed this.
Speaker 1:Thank you to those of you who are watching and listening lots here, so you may need to go re-watch this or replay it and hopefully you check out those links and see all the cool things Daniel's got going on, and we'll catch you all next time.