Cabernet and Pray Episode 14 with Nicholas Martin and Jeremy Jernigan
Check out the podcast at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Embark with us as we weave through the tapestry of France's rich vinicultural narrative alongside Nicholas Martin, a vintner whose stories are as robust as his Grenache Blanc. Picture yourself nestled in the picturesque Languedoc region, where every sip uncovers layers of heritage and innovation. We kick things off with a New Jersey Concord grape-based red that transports you back to childhood memories with its nostalgic taste, setting the stage for an episode steeped in tradition and personal tales from the art of winemaking.
Have you ever pondered the intersections of spirituality and a good bottle of wine? Our conversation takes an unexpected turn, transcending the vineyard as Nick recounts an encounter where a sermon on winemaking and faith struck a chord with an atheist French visitor. Through this dialogue, we unravel Nick's eclectic spiritual journey and the universal language of wine that bridges diverse beliefs. This episode isn't just about the notes and bouquets of fine vintages; it's a deeper foray into how our convictions and passions can coalesce in the most surprising ways.
As we uncork the final segment, we toast to the evolution of French wine culture and its ripples through family traditions and global markets. Witness the transformation of the Languedoc region, once known for bulk production, now a bastion of exquisite vintages. The impending climate change, the Paris Olympics' influence on Southern France, and the vibrancy of international exchanges are all poured into this conversation. Nicholas and I don't just discuss the confluence of wine and life's finer aspects; we celebrate them, inviting you to raise your glass to an episode that's as enlightening as it is flavorful.
Wines by:
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
Cabernet and Pray Episode 14 with Nicholas Martin and Jeremy Jernigan
Check out the podcast at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Embark with us as we weave through the tapestry of France's rich vinicultural narrative alongside Nicholas Martin, a vintner whose stories are as robust as his Grenache Blanc. Picture yourself nestled in the picturesque Languedoc region, where every sip uncovers layers of heritage and innovation. We kick things off with a New Jersey Concord grape-based red that transports you back to childhood memories with its nostalgic taste, setting the stage for an episode steeped in tradition and personal tales from the art of winemaking.
Have you ever pondered the intersections of spirituality and a good bottle of wine? Our conversation takes an unexpected turn, transcending the vineyard as Nick recounts an encounter where a sermon on winemaking and faith struck a chord with an atheist French visitor. Through this dialogue, we unravel Nick's eclectic spiritual journey and the universal language of wine that bridges diverse beliefs. This episode isn't just about the notes and bouquets of fine vintages; it's a deeper foray into how our convictions and passions can coalesce in the most surprising ways.
As we uncork the final segment, we toast to the evolution of French wine culture and its ripples through family traditions and global markets. Witness the transformation of the Languedoc region, once known for bulk production, now a bastion of exquisite vintages. The impending climate change, the Paris Olympics' influence on Southern France, and the vibrancy of international exchanges are all poured into this conversation. Nicholas and I don't just discuss the confluence of wine and life's finer aspects; we celebrate them, inviting you to raise your glass to an episode that's as enlightening as it is flavorful.
Wines by:
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
Welcome back, my friends. We are in another episode of Cabernet and Prey, and today we're going around the world. We are going all the way to France, one of the the absolute centerpieces of Wine in the entire world, and so today you're gonna get to go to France. We're we're jumping time zones quite a bit and I'm super excited for you to meet my friend, nicholas Martin. Now, when you think about Nick, wine runs through his family veins.
Speaker 1:His father was active in the transformation of the Longwood Ucks wine scene in the 1980s. He was helping up and coming winemakers to find new markets overseas. Longwood Uck is the region where he learned everything about wine and winemakers who dared to challenge tradition. He became an importer of premium boutique wines in Singapore and, like his father, his focus was to shine a light on the new generation of wine producers in the Longwood Uck. The area is today one of the most dynamic wine regions in the world, blending innovation with tradition and where nearly anything is possible. Now, in southern France, nick hosts wine tours to small family producers who are passionate and take real pride in their wines, and he also participates in the crafting of those wines. Welcome to the podcast, nick. Thank you, jeremy. Great to have you. Anything that that we miss in that that we need to know about you, oh.
Speaker 2:I think that was a very good introduction. There's a lot to talk about. I mean, we can elaborate on all that, but You're running the show, so here I am to answer any questions that you may have.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll see where we go. I think we need to start off With what we're drinking today, and I'm excited I'm drinking something totally unique. This is not what I normally drink, but I was given a bottle. This is called Valenzano Shamong Red Reserve. This is a a red wine from New Jersey, and I think this is perhaps the first New Jersey wine I've ever had at least like that I can think of and and this is made from Concord grapes, so think.
Speaker 1:Grape juice, like traditional grape juice. That's. That's what this is. And I gotta tell you Overwhelmingly, when I tasted this, it tastes like communion, like I mean, literally I'm getting like flashbacks Good grape juice, you know, when you're a kid, and not like the bad watered-down grape juice Like when I would get the good grape juice as a kid. This is what it tastes like, so it literally it's like blending worlds for me of like my memories taking communion as a kid, getting the really good grape juice, and then here it is in a bottle. This is super light. I've got a quite a good pour going here but actually very light in color, very light in tannins as well, which makes us a really good breakfast slash morning wine.
Speaker 1:Now, because of the time zone difference, I'm actually recording this in the morning in Arizona time to be able to connect with Nick in France. So I don't normally do these in the morning. So this is actually this is a great choice for me. I haven't had lunch yet. This is a real easy drinker before I get into my day, as I was tasting this Just overwhelming grape jelly. I mean this, just a load of grape jelly. You get. Cranberry For fun, I would say gummy worms. You know, I get some of that sugar in there and it does have a bit of residual sugar, a bit of sweetness to it. So this is kind of drinking candy, kind of like a Maybe a transition adult grape juice, if you will. If you're trying to dip your toes into the water Of the wine world and you're like, hey, I know grape juice, this might be a great way to do it, but I'm actually enjoying it. Super fun wine, nick, what are you drinking today?
Speaker 2:Well, may I just say that 11, 11 am, I believe, for you is the time when we start. You know our aparots in this part of the world. You know there we go Very normal. I I appreciate that you are doing this with me.
Speaker 1:So I'm telling my inner Frenchman is what you're saying?
Speaker 2:And it's 7 pm here, and this is what we do too at this time before dinner. I love it. So there you go, all right. So what are you drinking in your glass? So I, I'm, I have a white wine which is, um, what we would have before dinner. It's a very strange Um, it's a I've discovered this winery. It's, it's, um, it's. Can you see the? There you go. It's, uh, empedusa penata, which is a type of praying mantras that is present in the vineyards of this producer.
Speaker 2:She is a young French, dutch lady who I think, is emblematic of the long dog of this part of the world, and it is a grenache blanc vermentino blend. Now, why grenache and vermentino? Well, both are very common here, vermentino less so, but grenache blanc is, um, one of the most common grave arches we have here and um. So I think her blend is is a result of. I mean, what she's trying to do is um, balance acidity With all those fruit flavors, um, that we that you find in in grenache. The problem with grenache is it, um, it's not very acidic. It's, it's the, it's the flesh of any wine, but the vermentino is the skeleton. That's what gives the wine its acidity, and we're talking here about a lot of floral, floral aromas, um, citrus fruits. Um, I didn't put in peach, so it's.
Speaker 2:I think it's a good balance between, um, like I said, citrus and and stone fruit. It's a discovery, like I said, and that's what's great about this part of the world, is that because we have so many different terroir, different micro climates, we can do a lot of things that elsewhere you cannot. You, you just mentioned the um, your wine is a concord grape. That's very interesting for me because it is, it is a, it is clearly a north american varietal which we do not have here. Um, that said, uh, you did save our wine industry 150 years ago with this kind of, uh, I wouldn't say the grape, but the root stock. Yeah, it's what allows us here in france and in europe to continue to make wine. So, thank you, um, but I don't think it would do well in now part of the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah you're not great, yeah, so I think we're. We're tasting very different wines here, and that's what that's what I love, that's all right, cheers.
Speaker 1:All right, I want to. I want to start with how you and I met and I'll recollect it from my point of view, and then I want to give you a chance to to share your perspective. I got asked to to preach at a church and it's a church I regularly speak at and, uh, as I recall the past Was john 15, the, the idea of jesus saying I am the vine, you were the branches. And as I was looking at that, I thought how fun would it be to to teach that passage Really from a like a winemaking point of view, and to not just, not just tiptoe around okay, jesus is kind of referring to wine here but really go into it and and teach it from that point of view. And so I asked the, the pastor, I just said, hey, would you be comfortable with that? Because you know, obviously this is not the, not the traditional way to preach this passage. And and he said, go for it. And so I, as I recall I you know I was I was showing slides of different vineyards and I was explaining how how vines grow and what vines look like and what jesus may have been saying and what that visually means, and and really unpacking it, you know, from a, from a wine point of view, and and as a communicator, you know, I had no idea Is this gonna land with people or is this just too much? Are people gonna go? What is this guy, you know, talking about wine? Just talk about jesus, you know. But to me, why why I love the overlap of, you know, spirituality and wine, is that so many of these images that jesus uses they incorporate wine and wine making. And so I really went for it.
Speaker 1:And then, after the service, uh, someone comes up to me and says You've got to meet someone here from france. And I said, oh really, there's someone here. And they, yeah, he's visiting. And then they said it's his first time at church, in in an american church, and I said, oh really, he's not been to american church, no, he's never been here.
Speaker 1:And you know, again, as I was told to me, uh, this is his first one. And I said what does he, what does he do in in france? And they said he's in the wine industry. And I thought how cool. And so I I get introduced to you after the service and, uh, you, you kind of explained to me you are not a christian, you're an atheist, you're. You came because of a friend and you were kind of exploring. Not sure where you were, but I remember you. You were choked up over that and you had Motion a lot of emotion on your face as you considered, you know, hey, you pop into a church, uh, just kind of a random, you know sunday for you, and here this preacher is talking about vineyards and wine making in jesus, and uh, what, what was that like? What do you remember from that day?
Speaker 2:um, I felt connected? Um, I would. I would consider myself, looking thinking back um, that I Was, and probably still am, a lost christian. Okay, and I say that because I was. Um, I was baptized a russian orthodox. Um grew up in a anglican school. Um, I was at boarding school in the uk.
Speaker 2:Um married a roman catholic and um, and I think, at some point, um, I Didn't like what I was seeing, I didn't like hearing it, I felt disconnected.
Speaker 2:And so when I, when I heard your, your, your, your, your sermon, or your sermon, something, something touched me deeply, as you, as you saw for yourself and um, and I think it was, the analogy certainly helped, but it was something that you said that just certainly touched me. I think I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it was, but it was you who had this message, which I was very, very receptive to. Maybe, at the moment, have come for a, you know, and I think we've talked about it since certainly, yeah, there was a wanting to come back, but, yeah, and I and I and I but this is something we can discuss later on I think what I, what I, what I saw, what I felt, was somebody, you, reaching out, asking people to reflect on the message, what the Bible was saying, what the message was, and I find that that's that's a great thing, it's it's what allowed me to connect, and I think it encourages people to think rather than be be told what they should think, how they should think Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you and I have had a chance to talk numerous times since then and have developed a friendship out of that. But that's one of the things you've shared and we can get into that a little bit that the way Jesus was presented was perhaps a little bit different than you have heard it elsewhere, in the sense of here's the right answers, here's what you believe, you know, kind of fall in line and this was more of an invitation to experience it.
Speaker 2:I think it is what Jesus wanted was was trying to do at the time. He was challenging the status quo. He was bringing people into, into the church. Rather than you know, I think he was. He was a rebel, and that's what I am to somewhere.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of us who are who are either listening or watching this podcast can can relate to that spirit. So before we get into the spirituality stuff, let's talk wine for a little bit. When you think about obviously this, this runs in your family, as I said in the intro. But when you think back, when did you get really interested in wine? Like, what are those early memories for you?
Speaker 2:Well, wine, wine in France is, it's in our DNA. So, you know we, wine is part of our culture, you know we, even we even drink it, as when we're kids. Well, you know, we're allowed to sip, even you know the dinner table. But when did I really get interested? I guess when my dad started to work in the long dock. He was not a rich, he was not in the wine business, he was. He was a diplomat and he finished his career in the long dock in Montpellier and his job was simply to find export markets for these new wine makers, because this was a time when there was this big transformation from bulk, cheap and cheerful to quality wine and the new generation of wine makers, like I said, were looking to make their own wines and get people to drink them. And he started working with people, with families, who I still work with today. Although he worked with the dad, I'm working with the daughter or son. There is a continuity.
Speaker 2:So I would say it was when I was about quite late in life, really maybe 15 years ago. But I really got into it when I moved to Singapore and I needed something to do and it was very easy. It was a very easy transition. I had my, I had my suppliers, again my dad's, my dad's people. So I started working longer dock wines in Singapore and I think that was a time. I think I came in at the moment, at the right moment, because Singapore certainly to a lesser extent perhaps, the United States French wine, bordeaux, burgundy, champagne so there's been no looking back.
Speaker 2:Then, when I returned to France, it was about getting into doing something I've always wanted, I'd always wanted to do, and it allows me to not just stay in the business but also to introduce foreigners outside to what we are doing here. And there is so much to discover, there's so much going on. We are in a part of the world where, like I said earlier, there are a lot of microclimates, so we can basically produce pretty much anything. Now I'm just going back a little to those 1980s. The region started from scratch. They weren't bound by tradition, winemaking methods that you will see in other parts of France, like Bordeaux and Burgundy and champagne. We were able to basically do what we wanted. The winemakers had a clean slate, legislation allowed for that. So today we have nearly 100 great varietals. That's unheard of anywhere in France. Up to I think the number is about 90. And you can imagine what they can do with that. It's very, very interesting. This is why we combine tradition with innovation.
Speaker 1:I want to get more into that because that's intriguing to me. It's unique because I've been to Bordeaux and so many rules, so many regulations and I think, especially as an American, we're still kind of like the wild, wild West the way we often view things. A lot less rules in how we do line in America. You go over to Europe and France or Italy and you realize, holy cow, you have all these rules, all these regulations, very, very strict, of what you can do. So when you talk about winemakers who are challenging tradition and I think you're referencing specifically in southern France what does that look like and what led to that? What prompted this resurgence there?
Speaker 2:Well, like I said when the French government said right, you need to stop producing all this cheap plonk, you need to stop that we will pay you to uproot your vineyards. The emphasis now has to be on quality.
Speaker 1:Which, by the way, as an American, it's just funny to think that's the government of France saying our wine has gotten bad.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what we thought. We were selling hundreds of thousands of tons of grape to the rest of the country. So at some point and at the same time, I think the idea was to reduce consumption. I mean, I guess somebody at the top said okay, we need to calm down, you need to start drinking better Quality over quantity, Absolutely. And the results have been spectacular. I mean, some of the wines we have today here are world-class. They're exported worldwide, even to the United States. I am challenged, though, to find some of them in Arizona. That's a shame. I will try and remedy that at some point, and I'm looking forward to it certainly.
Speaker 1:What's something that French people know about wine that Americans need to learn?
Speaker 2:I think you can teach us a lot. The French think they know everything, which is why my wine tours are in English, Because the Frenchman, the average Frenchman, will say no, no, no, no, I know ready, and there's no discussion. I think the French are living on their laurels making. You know, we've been making wine for centuries. We know how to make wine. Everybody else well, they learned from us. But, like you were saying earlier, we are still bound, at least in the rest of the country. We are still bound by tradition, by rules. We've been making the same wine for centuries. We have new technology, but those are the grapes. This is when you can harvest, et cetera, et cetera. And that leads me to say, in the log dock, we've had a lot of foreign wine makers come in and making wine. So there's a different approach. There's been an outside. Outside knowledge has come in and outside outlook has come in.
Speaker 1:How is that perceived from the French people?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's a problem because a lot of, a lot of, even French winemakers have embraced, you know this, this, this new outlook. A lot of younger winemakers have studied abroad, they've been to Australia, they've been to California, they've learned new techniques. So I think we're all on board.
Speaker 1:So the game, the game has changed a bit, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2:This is why I say I think we've, we've, we need to learn. We have learned a lot from, from, from Americans, from the Americans and from the Australians, and it's it's beneficial to to our wine industry.
Speaker 1:So okay, but culturally, like you said you, you grew up with this in your DNA. That is not something most Americans would say is in our DNA. In fact, you know, one of the reasons why I like doing what I do with communion wineco is that we often are introducing people to wine or helping them take a little bit that they know and go deeper into it. And you know we're. We provide a lot of education in that, but also just exposure to wine ideas, because most Americans aren't as familiar. So with the familiarity, is there anything that you guys just intuitively you know, like you said, you grew up drinking it as kids, sipping it at the table anything that you go? Yeah, you guys got to do more of this and you know your life would be better. Yeah, yeah, what's that?
Speaker 2:Well, drinking wine is always good fun. I mean, it allows for good conversation. It does Brings down barriers and yeah, I think, I think. I think wine in certain countries is still considered a perhaps luxury item. There's a certain chinovism about it, but there shouldn't be. Yeah, I think wine has always been approached with the little. I'm not sure what to say, I'm not sure what to think. No one has to find the wine he likes or she likes. Joy, ultimately, wine is to be enjoyed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the things we often say at our events, you know, because people think, well, if I can't explain you know what's in the glass and I don't know the varietals and I don't know the history, then I'm somehow doing it wrong. And we always say that that can certainly help and that can add to it. But at the end of the day it's like you said there are wines you like and wines you don't like, and you drink the ones you like. I mean really not more complicated than that.
Speaker 2:You find out what's in it, and then you and then you proceed to finding similar wines made from from the same grapes or in the same way. Sure.
Speaker 1:What's an underrated wine that people who are listening to this or watching this should go check out.
Speaker 2:Check out wines from the south of France. Just you're going to claim the whole region huh, Because I think there is so much out there waiting for you. Unfortunately, in Arizona there are not as many, not as much as I would like, but when you see a long good wine, go for it.
Speaker 1:Give it a try. Any particular varietals or just anything in the region.
Speaker 2:Well, you will inevitably see Grenache Syrah or Shiraz. They're the main stay of our wine industry here. You will see Vionier Grenache Gris on the white side. That's a good way to start. Compare them to the Grenache Syrah you find in California or even Arizona. Try and compare them and see how they match.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:Good way to start.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you look at the wine industry and obviously you're in it in the heart of southern France, but this could be in your region, this can be just globally. What changes do you see coming into the industry into the future? How do you see it? How do you see the way we experience wine is going to change, the way?
Speaker 2:we experience wine. Well, I think what's happening certainly climate change is having a big impact on the wine industry. I say that because I work in the vineyards. During the winter. There has been a big change, so the weather is getting warmer, it's getting drier. We are beginning now to plant grape varietals that are not from France. We have to go to Spain, we have to go to southern Italy, we have to go to Greece to find those varietals that can live in a warming environment, in a dry climate. That will have a big impact. We're beginning to see the changes, but in the long term, this is what we'll be the weather will have a big impact on the type of wines we drink.
Speaker 1:You think certain wines are going to go away? Yes, so which wines should we be drinking now that will not be around in the future.
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I think again, vines are very adaptable, although at some point they'll need to move further north, certainly the big Grenasse. Here are what we're seeing less of Because of many microclimates. We have Sauvignon Blanc, vermintino, as in this wine, pinot Noir will disappear. They need cool climates, so you won't be seeing any of those anymore.
Speaker 1:If Pinot Noir goes away, that'll be a sad day for my heart.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about Longuedoc In Burgundy. They'll be sticking around for a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Each region is going to have to figure that out. All right, I think we should take a little drink break and then we'll change gears here. Okay, before we get into some of the Christianity stuff, when coming out of a drink break, I'd like to ask our guests about a story they had where they just think back to an incredible moment drinking a wine where, I like to say, the stars aligned, everything was perfect, and they just think back and have these memories. Some of our guests don't have a ton of wine experience, so sometimes we're giving them that moment, but I think you've got to have a treasure trove of these. What is just one of your top moments with an incredible glass of wine? Tell us about it.
Speaker 2:I would say I had a moment when I discovered with one of the winemakers I work with, a Rose wine that they were producing it's not something that I'd ever tasted before and its name was actually l'incroyable Now, incroyable in English is incredible, and it was. I was able to share that experience with in Singapore and it did become my best selling wine. It's nice to find that kind of when you discover wine like that and you just say wow, yes, there are other moments. That's the first one I thought of, because it was Anquay up, it was well named, huh, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:That would be disappointing. To drink that bottle and go. Nope, it's not incredible, this is just average. So it's good that it lived up to the name. I certainly did, so. You unpacked a little bit of this. You have quite a handful of traditions in your spirituality background and you kind of named a few of them. But for a lot of Americans watching and listening to this, we have a way more narrow, probably, background with Christianity than you do. I would love to hear, with the versions of Christianity that you grew up with outside of the US, what was that journey like for you? What did you kind of take away from each of those different branches?
Speaker 2:Well, like I said, I was baptized and brought up a Russian Orthodox. With hindsight, I think the answer would be better. I think the question would be better answered if I continue with the rest. So I was brought up a Russian Orthodox and I went from about the age of 11. My dad was transferred to the UK and I went to an Anglican school. I was in an Anglican school for several years, until the age of 18, with all the beautiful things that come from being in a Church of England school.
Speaker 2:We would go every Sunday to sing our hymns. I certainly enjoyed that. When I think about it, I certainly, and when I hear them rarely hear anyway a smile comes to my face. But I think the defining I mean what really impacted me was my experience with Italy. I spent time in Italy, my ex-wife was a Roman Catholic and, to be very honest, the Catholic Church has a very different approach with respect to what I had known and experienced before. So I'm talking of three different ways of approaching Jesus and Christianity and I think at this point perhaps you should ask me some questions because I think I would be better understood. I'm talking about experience, which certainly are varied, but again, the three churches are similar but very different at the same time.
Speaker 1:Okay, what's something you liked about each of the three that you took away that you enjoyed?
Speaker 2:I think I prefer to say that I found the Roman Catholic Church to be very rigid. You are either in or out. That's changed. That certainly has changed. My children are Catholics, but I don't see it as moved on, if I may use that. In my time, like I said, it was black and white urinal urout, which I think doctrine was such that Roman Catholics had to live double lives, and that's a big word. But there was a lot of hypocrisy in the sense that this is what the Church is telling you to do and this is what human beings actually are like. We can't do what you are telling us to do. I may sound a little extreme, but that's certainly how I saw things and how I felt things. Otherwise I wouldn't be saying it.
Speaker 1:The Catholic experience sounds more negative from what you experienced. Anything positive from the Russian Orthodox.
Speaker 2:I think Russian Orthodoxy is not going to. I don't feel that Russian Orthodoxy is going to tell you what to do. It's more about your conscience. You are encouraged, but nobody is going to be judging you for it. We're not going to be looking at what you're doing. It's up to you. This is the Word of God. We encourage you to abide by the Word of God, but the rest is up to you. I found that very much in the Anglican Church, I think. Where you have a hierarchy, you tend to have a certain rigidity in terms of doctrine. I don't think that's always a good thing, because we are so diverse. We all have our failings. We are all sinners at some point, but that's okay. We err, we all do. I think Jesus was accepted. Again, like I said, the Church is a hierarchy. It's become a structure, even a political structure, if you will. It has been for a very long time. Again, things are changing. It was about what you should believe rather than who I am.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the last few years then you've added more experiences with Christianity in America and you've seen a different flavor of that. You put all of that together, because all of us are a combination of our experiences and our perspectives and our journeys. What do you think about Christianity these days? You look back at all of it. How do you make sense of it? What do you think about Christianity?
Speaker 2:Christianity is a set of values. It has to be again, I'm talking from a very personal experience we need to be open, tolerant, we have to be able to forgive we are not all the same, more inclusive, less judgmental the values that we have. I believe that we are going towards a more secular society, which is not a bad thing, but we should not lose those fundamental Christian values which I believe make for a more cohesive society, more respect for each other, which I feel that because we're moving away, becoming more secular, I just think there's more conflict.
Speaker 1:And you can't, just, you can't just tell people in a secular society, here's what you should believe and expect that they're going to do that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think a secular society allows people to to. Again, it encourages diversity. I mean, there are, there is Christianity, isn't, isn't, isn't alone there there, there is Islam, there is Buddhism, there is Judaism. A secular society allows for that. There is a separation of church and state, which is a good thing, but what I'm trying to say is those values are common to all three, to all four. Perhaps, as Christians, we, we, we have, we have a set of values which I think aren't being, are being forgotten or ignored, and I believe that leads to conflict, and I think that's what's happening. We're becoming, we're divided. Should be more respect of each other. We should be more, more. There should be more interaction, there should be more dialogue, and I think because those fundamental values are missing, Okay, so switch gears a little bit.
Speaker 1:What do you think about Jesus in particular? What do you think about Jesus these days?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a good question. Jesus was. He ended up, I think he upended the status quo. He, jesus was, was somebody who rebelled against the church at the time. He was looking to be more inclusive. He wanted to bring people into the church. I think that's that's that's important.
Speaker 2:The he, I think he wanted to people to hear the word. That word was not available to everybody. It was, I think and I again again that that wanting to, to bring the word to everybody. I think he wanted people to think for themselves. I think that's what he tried to do. He had a message of tolerance, peace, which I think was was missing at the time. Again, I think the original Jesus has been hijacked, has been corrupted with the instauration of a church which has become, which became very political, if you will. It became, it became under the influence of, of of kings and queens, and it became a political tool to impose a certain way of thinking. So Jesus was a rebel. I think he he understood that. That's not what the church was about. It was about the message of God which had been lost. Love it.
Speaker 1:What's something right now that's blowing your mind. This could be anything.
Speaker 2:What's blowing my mind. I feel that I'm learning something new every day. I don't know what's happened, but that you know, even even meeting you it was. It was a revelation and inspiration. And and I'm meeting, I meet new people every pretty much every day now, and and everybody has has has something interesting to say. At least those are those people who have met and it's allowed me. I'm curious by nature, but I I I like to hear new things, and some of those new things are, like like you just said, mind blowing because they're unexpected.
Speaker 1:That's been one of my favorite parts of hosting this podcast is just getting the chance to sit down and have formal conversations with people and just ask people questions about themselves. And I've been reminded of what you said, that people are endlessly fascinating if you take the time to get to know them and to ask them what they think. And there's so much to learn. Obviously, I love reading. You can learn a lot in books, but you can learn a lot just by sitting down with someone, especially over a glass of nice wine, and say, hey, tell me about this or what do you think about this, and listening and not that we can solve all of our problems with a glass of wine and a conversation, but we can solve a lot of them if we sat down and just listened to another and said help me understand, why do you see this the way you do?
Speaker 1:Or or you know, or what do you know about this? And I totally agree. Every day every day presents opportunities to, to learn from the people that you will never stop with.
Speaker 2:You will never stop learning. So just to go back to what we were talking about, so what I appreciated when I met you, jeremy, was there was a dialogue. I felt there was a dialogue with, with, with the congregation. Okay, we were able to talk. You know, that was very new to me, which is why I felt the way I did that was that has never been possible for me. That had never been possible for me beforehand. I was spoken to or spoke at Right.
Speaker 1:One of my, one of my favorite moments with Jesus is he's. He's with his disciples and they're asking him a theological question and he says to them how do you read it? Like when you read the scriptures, how do you make sense of this? And he invites them to give their own interpretation. And I've always found that so fascinating. That Jesus, if there ever was someone that you would think would just say, well, here's the right answer. You know that's Jesus, like you should be the one to be like. Well, the right way to read that is XYZ.
Speaker 1:But even Jesus resisted that answer and instead invited dialogue and said how do you read it? How do you make sense of that? And I love that and that is what you know. When I'm preaching, I'm I'm doing my best, right, I'm not Jesus, but I'm doing my best to channel that same spirit of how do you read it, how do you make sense of this? And you bring that dialogue together. And there's something far more beautiful than here's the 10 things you need to believe about this topic or this verse, and that to me it's like blech, and so so much of Christianity has become that Just believe these things, check these boxes, and I just like not. I think it's been hijacked?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it certainly was. I'm a history buff, so I do take interest in how, how things developed and how, how the original church came to be a pawn in, in, in, in the hands of the powers that be. It's a political tool, and so, again, and that's been, that's been trying, that's been going forward in, in, not in the same way, of course, but when, I think, when you have a hierarchy, a certain structure, that that that doesn't allow for, for, for how do we say dialogue, yeah, or you can dissent, yeah, you, you, you, you have a, you have a, you have a problem, and and people move away, which is what's happened to them. They move elsewhere. People do want to be able to express their opinion and I think that's very important.
Speaker 1:It's how people learn. You have to engage yourself. Yeah, all right. What's a, what's a problem that you're trying to solve right now?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't call them problems, I would call them challenges. Okay, what's a? What's a?
Speaker 1:challenge.
Speaker 2:A challenge is getting getting long docked wines into Arizona.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we, we talked about that later today. There you go.
Speaker 2:That's a challenge.
Speaker 1:So just to give a little context for everyone listening who was not at our lunch that we had, we were talking about how the really good wines you know are not, are not the ones you usually get on the the shelf. You know those are the wines you get directly from the, the, the chateau or the winery or you know. And so how do we get those? And we were talking about you know how do you get the, the really good stuff. And when you travel and you get to go to some, you know, even in the States you can go to, you know, obviously, be able to get California or even like Oregon, you can go to these wineries and experience the wine directly where it's made. And that's the stuff. They're not selling that stuff in stores. That's the really good stuff. But it's true, you know, it's true.
Speaker 1:When I traveled to, to Bordeaux, I realized, oh, these Bordeaux wines taste different than the Bordeaux wines that I can buy in Arizona. You know these are not the same quality of Bordeaux wines. And so you were talking about in Southern France. You know the stuff that you love. How do we get people to to actually do that? So if you, if you figure out your solution to that challenge. I am all ears because I want to.
Speaker 1:I want to experience great Southern France wines.
Speaker 2:You won't be disappointed.
Speaker 1:I don't think I will.
Speaker 2:I did it in Singapore and and people were, you know, they found something new and something they liked, and I mean Rose, was, was, was one of my, one of my oh, People loved it because we, we do make a very good Rose in this part of the world.
Speaker 1:So that's a wine maker on here on one of our episodes and I asked him the question but what's an underrated wine that we need to check out? And he said Rose. So more people talking about Rose. That is trend alert people. I'm just telling you something there. Um, okay, nick, what's something you're excited about right now?
Speaker 2:Um, I'm excited about um, so we we expect a lot of people visiting where I live, um this year, especially from the U? S because of our Olympics. The Olympics are in Paris, but also in Marseille, which is a big city, not very far far from him. They will be. Marseille will be hosting the, the, the water events, and so we're expecting a lot of people coming in and? Um. That's. That's good, because it means that people are interested to come here. They were the and I imagine they will want to discover new things and visit places, um, and that's what I do, so I am looking forward to that.
Speaker 1:They're going to. They're going to want someone to show them around some fresh some Southern and front vineyards.
Speaker 2:And um, and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm very passionate about some of the areas we have, you know, very beautiful landscapes, great wines, and nobody's ever been disappointed with what they've seen and what they've tasted. So that's what I'm excited about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, is there anything? I didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about that, we just didn't get to.
Speaker 2:Oh well, um, I'm sure, I'm sure it'll come to mind. That's what generally happens Great time and um, yeah, that'll come later and I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to, to, to. You'll have an opportunity to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, All right, so our audience wants to check you out. You have a website, a wine affair dot FR. So for us Americans you gotta gotta go dot FR. Uh, that's the website, right? And on Instagram it's a underscore wine, underscore affair, correct.
Speaker 1:That's the best place to find you. See what you're doing. Yep, yep, absolutely Awesome. Well, nick, it has been so fun to you to be friends with you. Uh, these last I don't know how long it's been a year or two, um but just to get to know you better, that we've had fascinating conversations and I love that that you have brought us to France today. The podcast has has gone further than it's gone yet and, uh, we're grateful for your insight, for your story and for your friendship. So thank you for taking the time today to walk us through this and for sharing your perspective.
Speaker 2:Thank you for taking me to Arizona. That was, uh. It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, everybody, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Cabernet and Prey. See you guys later.