We sit down with the ever-inspiring Rob Bell, whose journey from founding Mars Hill Bible Church to penning New York Times bestsellers has captivated the minds and hearts of many. Rob's latest fictional escapade lures us into a world that mirrors our own, prompting self-reflection and an adventurous examination of the societal constructs that shape our reality. As we sip on Rob's unconventional choice of beverage, we unravel the intricacies of character development, the power of naming, and the unexpected impact of bread as a life-affirming metaphor within the tapestry of his narrative.
Navigating the complexities of modern society, our conversation with Rob ventures into the realms of political polarization, wealth inequality, and the poignant struggles of homelessness. Through Heen Gru-bare's fictional journey in "Where'd You Park Your Spaceship," we are invited to contemplate the pressing issues beneath the surface of our daily lives. The laughter and wisdom that ensue encourage listeners to question the status quo as we ponder the ethics of policies and the true meaning of community in the context of our shared humanity.
In the quieter moments of our dialogue, we reflect on the profound shifts personal growth brings to our lives. Sharing stories of transitions challenging the heart, Rob and I discuss the bittersweet nature of closing chapters and the courage it takes to step into the unknown. The resonance of change, the appreciation for the artistic process, and the shared inspiration that transcends generations leave us with a sense of gratitude for the journey and the connections we forge along the way. Join us as we uncover the layers of Rob Bell's artistic vision and the messages that beckon us to look inward and embrace the beauty of evolution in our own lives.
www.RobBell.com
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
We sit down with the ever-inspiring Rob Bell, whose journey from founding Mars Hill Bible Church to penning New York Times bestsellers has captivated the minds and hearts of many. Rob's latest fictional escapade lures us into a world that mirrors our own, prompting self-reflection and an adventurous examination of the societal constructs that shape our reality. As we sip on Rob's unconventional choice of beverage, we unravel the intricacies of character development, the power of naming, and the unexpected impact of bread as a life-affirming metaphor within the tapestry of his narrative.
Navigating the complexities of modern society, our conversation with Rob ventures into the realms of political polarization, wealth inequality, and the poignant struggles of homelessness. Through Heen Gru-bare's fictional journey in "Where'd You Park Your Spaceship," we are invited to contemplate the pressing issues beneath the surface of our daily lives. The laughter and wisdom that ensue encourage listeners to question the status quo as we ponder the ethics of policies and the true meaning of community in the context of our shared humanity.
In the quieter moments of our dialogue, we reflect on the profound shifts personal growth brings to our lives. Sharing stories of transitions challenging the heart, Rob and I discuss the bittersweet nature of closing chapters and the courage it takes to step into the unknown. The resonance of change, the appreciation for the artistic process, and the shared inspiration that transcends generations leave us with a sense of gratitude for the journey and the connections we forge along the way. Join us as we uncover the layers of Rob Bell's artistic vision and the messages that beckon us to look inward and embrace the beauty of evolution in our own lives.
www.RobBell.com
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
Well, hey, friends, welcome to episode 16 of Cabernet and Pray. This is a special one. I got to sit down with someone that I have followed from afar for many years and have wanted to meet him, wanted to talk to him. Never had the chance, but it all aligned and episode 16 is Rob Bell, and Rob is a huge name, hugely influential. If you don't know who he is already, which I'm imagining most of you do if you don't just Google Rob Bell and you will find out all sorts of things. This guy has had his hand in a lot over the years. Little background just to prime the pump At age 28, Rob founded Mars Hill Bible Church in Michigan and during that time, as he led that, it was one of the fastest growing churches in America and that's where he kind of got on the map for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:In 2011, he was profiled in Time Magazine as one of their top 100 most influential people. In 2014, Rob was featured on Oprah's Life you Want Tour? I mean you know you've made it when you're on Oprah. He's written numerous New York Times bestsellers, such as what is the Bible, what we talk about when we talk about God and Love Wins. His most recent book is a fictional story called Where'd you Park your Spaceship. Rob hosts a popular podcast called the Robcast and these days he's making art and writing plays and continuing to share great ideas with the rest of us. I absolutely loved this conversation with Rob Love the chance to not only talk about what I most liked about his recent book, but just his journey and some behind the scenes, and this was incredibly thought provoking for me. It was encouraging to me and I hope it will be for you as well. Enjoy episode 16.
Speaker 2:Dude your shirt is Pit-a-pit-a-pittle. I don't even. I just don't even know what to say about that. That's so awesome.
Speaker 1:Your store is literally so fun. And then you know, of course, all my kids are like Dad what is pit-a-pit-a-pittle? And I'm like I don't know how to explain to you what pit-a-pit-a-pittle is. No one does yeah that's the beauty of it. Hey man, it's good to talk to you. Thanks for doing this, my pleasure. Okay, do you have your honey ginger bee?
Speaker 2:drink. This one is a spirulina bee pollen, organic wild raspberry lemon that I got from my neighbors. In the morning I take lemons off my neighbor's tree. What else? A touch of Stevia. I'm not gonna lie that looks disgusting.
Speaker 1:I was thinking it was gonna have a more appealing look to it.
Speaker 2:Oh no, you would think this tastes unbelievable. It's actually quite sweet. Yeah, yeah, you'd be like this is the blessed blueberry drink I've ever had. No, you would not. It would you know. Some drinks are like that's like a backyard in a glass. You know what I mean. Yeah, sometimes some green, like certain kale and cucumber smoothies, I'm like I'll just go lay face down in your backyard and, you know, just suck on the ground if I want that taste. No, this would you'd be like oh yeah, that's great, it's dark, that's very dark. I think the wild blueberries oh, you see what I mean.
Speaker 2:Okay, look at that color, that's just fantastic. Wow, yeah, yeah. What do you have? What do you have? A Cabernet.
Speaker 1:That's the most Rob Bell drink I've ever heard. So I'm doing a rosé, and this is a 2021 Olima Rosé from France, not as exciting as yours, but so I always do tasty notes on these. On this one, I'm getting Honeydew, melon, rose Petal and Pink Grapefruit.
Speaker 2:Just the fact that you're wearing a Yankees hat as you say that it's just a lot of worlds are coming together right there.
Speaker 1:With a little potato pillow shirt. I mean, we're not just drinking at all.
Speaker 2:The whole Tableau is just the next level of you've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it. That's true. This is the beauty of life, right? That's funny.
Speaker 1:All right. So for those who are watching and listening, I'm gonna just encourage you. Rob just came out with a book that's so fun and I just you've said I've heard you say this numerous times that you never tire of talking about this book, and I can see why. I mean, there's just so many. It's kind of like my outfit, I guess. There's so many nuances to it. You're pulling together so many things. I'm just gonna recommend for fans of this podcast go get the audio book version. This is Rob reading it for you and I mean, dude, it's so fun Cause it's you can tell it's just you sitting in your room I don't know if you're the same space you recorded.
Speaker 2:The garage right here. It was like, right here at this desk made out of a door from my daughter's old closet Like oh yeah.
Speaker 1:We're here live, where the book was recorded audio and it's just you reading it and, dude, it's so great and it's so fun and you get your. You know pronunciations on the words that you've made up, so that's helpful. To go like oh, what is Rob envisioning? This word sounds like Right, Because otherwise you read it and you're like I don't know how to pronounce that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's super fun. So I would just encourage people. That's like the only word I could use to describe it is it's an experience. It's not like you're reading, it's like you're experiencing something with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's really interesting to point that out, because right away, like all creation requires a form and different forms bring with them all sorts of levels of assumptions and expectations. And right away, when I was writing the story, it was like, well, this is a novel, but it was like, I just use your own words, it's not really a novel, cause even novel has yeah, yeah, I know what a novel was Like. No, it's a story. It's a story and it happens to be taking on these different forms, like a paperback book, and it was really interesting to write the book and then to do the audio book and almost feel like, oh, the audio is like where it really, as opposed to a book that you made into an audio book, it's almost like an audio book that you first wrote down, right right, almost like it's just a story. I tell you, like if you and I were sitting here and I just started telling a 12 hour story, you know what I mean. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally Very mysterious, how, even like you think, like for a parent, like there's this great, some people think the greatest American architect, louis Kahn he would ask this question began before he began a project by asking what does this building want to be?
Speaker 2:So you're like letting it almost like tell you, like an impelling force, it has an energy that comes up within it and you're just guiding it and sort of in service to it, which I think is, if you have kids, is the greatest question you could ever ask is who does this kid want to be? Because this kid does not want to be in advanced math. Let's be honest, like you know what I mean, like you're just letting it, as opposed to your own attachments and expectations. You're cramping something and constricting it by placing. So it's interesting you said that about the audio because I kept having to. I kept listening to, like what does this want to be? What is this? And it was like oh yeah, just read it so that you can hear the pages turning. Oh yeah, get it like as raw and sort of essential as possible. It's amazing how those sorts of things work.
Speaker 1:Well then you even say you know in the audio version, like hey, I've left in like the mistakes, so like, like you'd have. You know, if you're a dad reading your kids, like you stumble over things or you reread it and it's in there and you just don't. You don't hear that in audio books.
Speaker 2:Right right, cause generally it's seen as a performance, and especially the first time, cause the book continues for sections where I like choke up, for whatever reason. Sometimes I know why the certain scenes hit me, and other times they just hit at some sort of some conscious deep level. And I remember the first time it happened I was like do I just keep? Do I just collect myself and do I hit stop? And it was like wait, stopping recording would be more awkward than just. This is what would happen if I was reading it to you. I would be moved by it or I would be like, man, I really love this part. You know what I mean. I would just make my own commentary on myself, so just leave it all in.
Speaker 1:But that's the experience. We go on that journey with you. Yeah, exactly, it's so great.
Speaker 2:There's the story and then there's the telling of the story, yes, which they talk in a theater. They talk about theatrical proxemics or like a comedian. There's what the comedian is doing on the stage, but then there is a second show which is what is happening in the audience in response to what the comedian is saying. So there's this, there's multiple shows happening in the room.
Speaker 1:That's so good. How long has this thing been brewing in your head?
Speaker 2:Normally things I make I've been carrying around for a long time and then eventually it's like, okay, now we're going to make it and put it out this one within a beat, in the middle of the night, somewhere between fast asleep and wide awake, this guy is asking this guy where'd you park your spaceship? I almost like a lucid dream and I remember in the middle of the night being like this image of the sky, asking this guy this question and immediately being like well, how does this guy feel about this question? He does not like this question. What's his name? Dill, todd, what's his name? He and Grubert. It was all like right there, I remember, and there's like a notepad in the clothes closet, like the don't forget the bread sort of notepad, like things you don't want to, your kid needs, whatever. I remember writing down in the morning a bunch of where'd you park your spaceship. This guy asked the sky, the one guy's name, and then, over the I don't know a couple days or weeks, I just kept note.
Speaker 2:The story just kept coming and I'd written some other books. So I had the experience of when you have enough, that you're like oh, this is the thing we can start typing. So it wasn't that long before I sat down and started typing out of just the most pure, naked curiosity what is this? And I, right away, was like if I took this to publishers and be like that's called word, you park your spaceship. It's mostly about the planet Ferdinand. I was like I just I've been in. Like there are these rooms in New York city where you go and there's all these people around the table and these executives I've done that sort of dance before and I was like, if I like drop that sucker in the middle of those tables and like this is the book peoples, they'd be like what, the what? This isn't a ruck. Right, give us a Rob Bell book. And I just, I had this immediate like but this is a ruck, this is so. It was like it was like it's the most Rob Bell book.
Speaker 2:Instantly free, and what was so fascinating is instantly it was free from all of the mechanisms, which was fine. All the other books there's a whole way. You're working for two years and there's a subtitle in the back cover and there's marketing promotion. And then you know, I was like I'm not, I'm doing my own thing here, so weird. And I was like, well, no one may read it, it may never be, this might just be for my own joy, healing entertainment, who knows? And then you may never make a dollar on this, you may actually lose money. It just it was like right away, it was like we're here for other reasons.
Speaker 2:It was really really fascinating, especially the trap, of course, is if you go around the world talking about creating things and giving people permission to do what they, what's rising up within them, then when it's like I had a Rob Bell myself, yeah, it was like. It was like I would say humbling. But what? This is what was way more intense than just a humbling. It was like, and it had so much energy and joy to it was like it just kept saying, like dude, you know nothing, you think like, you think you're, you go around and do workshops on this stuff. You're such a rookie. It was the best. That's so great, so I had this moment.
Speaker 1:I thought you might like this. I'm listening to the book and for those of you, we'll try to keep it relatively spoiler-free, but it's not that kind of a book, so you can't.
Speaker 2:it's hard to spoil this If you could. If somebody listening has read the book could remember a spoiler. You and I talked to you Like imagine, saying imagine this spoiler. Remember when born son lines goes over to Stelen Peak and has to be rescued. And then he grew bears bites off the tip of his tongue and a woman named Peebles shuts his like is there somebody who's like God, you just gave the whole thing away. I know exactly where it's going now. You see what I'm saying Like oh God, why would I even read? Third point Okay Was.
Speaker 2:Ziga May and Lan Zing there. Yeah, and he just told me that Bobby Freelance showed up. You know what I mean. No one's. That's what I love about it, no one else.
Speaker 1:So I'm listening to this and you know, heen is kind of the character you follow along and Heen's growing up and experiencing this and gets gets this moment where he gets a spaceship and then he's traveling and you know, then he kind of starts to experience people and he realizes like, oh, you don't have a spaceship, like you don't get to do the things that I get to do. You're, you know, kind of locked in on this planet. I literally had this thought that I thought this is a funny thought. I was like how lame for people who have only been on one planet their whole life. And then I was like, oh, that's all of us Like in real life, you know what I mean. Like you had like so captured the imagination of, yeah, that would, that's, that's what the cool people do, is they? They travel around spaceships and they see all these worlds. And then I was like, oh, I felt empathy for the people who you know, you've only known Fertis, you know and then I was like, oh, that's literally me, like I've never been in a spaceship.
Speaker 2:That is awesome. Oh my God, that is so great. And oh my God, that is the. I just have to like take that in. That is such a great take. If this was sports center, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A Smith would have no idea what to say. If you drop that down, that is so good. And then you think about what you're saying because the I mean page one the earth didn't make it. So our worst fear, the fear of the collective right now, the thing that's hanging in the balance that everybody's like, is is the planet going to be okay? The book begins with yeah, yeah, that didn't work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no.
Speaker 2:But, weirdly enough, that creates the situation that you're talking about. Like you, imagine just being on one planet, Like something so catastrophic and horrific and devastating Our 2024 worst fear happens in order to set up a situation where someone like you is going ugh only the layers. That's seriously, that's such. What's the opposite of meta? I mean, that's like that is really good, that's really funny. One planet, Thank you.
Speaker 1:Anyone who reads this book is going to notice immediately and if you haven't picked up already, the names are not subtle. In this book we have people like HeenGrewBears, barbara Barbar, zygmae Nunye and, my personal favorite, dilltud, with the slogan pittle, pittle, pittle. For those of you on video, I'm wearing a pittle, pittle, pill shirt. You can get your own shirt if you fall in love with DillTud, like I did. I got to know what was your process. What's it like coming up with these characters I mean you mentioned? You're kind of like laying in bed and DillTud came to you. Is that how it was? Like a flash of inspiration? Or you literally like rolling these around like what's the most fun name to say? What was kind of the journey behind picking these names?
Speaker 2:I've always. I love names, like love names. So one time at a book signing, a guy in his wife said will you please sign our book? I was like great, who do you want me to sign it to? And he said Bong and JaJa. Like what is it? Ten years later, I'm still drafting off just that one. I love names.
Speaker 2:And I was at the Modern Art Museum in Edinburgh, scotland, and we went in the stairwell to go up to the next floor and the stairwell was white walls with black words on the wall like the size of normal type, filling the stairwell like multiple stories of just solid words. And I looked closely and it looked like names, but in like all kinds of names from like, obviously, all kinds of different countries. And then there's that plaque right beside the door where the artist explains the piece. And the artist said this is a list of all the names of everybody I've met in my lifetime. Wow, just like name wallpaper. And I said that to me is like I'm with my people. I mean I so sound and name so like.
Speaker 2:In many ways the name for me is like the portal into the character and I don't like I could like literally, because obviously we're working on the new book. I have right here on my phone like texts. I've texted Rob Bell and there are just like names that I'll come up with like text into myself, and then there's a list on this other computer right here yeah, so they somehow the name is like the first, it's like the way in to who the person is, and then a whole what they're wearing and where they're from, and odd gestures they scratch a thin, they rub their elbow, like all that sort of stuff that makes a character. It all comes from there and I don't. Some of it I understand and some of it I.
Speaker 2:Most of it I don't understand why it works the way it does, but it's like really, really, really enjoyable, like, really enjoyable. So I'll meet somebody and they'll say their name, they'll introduce themselves and I'll literally just repeat their name. Like you know what I mean. I'll just repeat their name, like then I'll say it again and then I'll ask them where, who, like I'll. I've met people in the first five minutes. I'm just interviewing them about their name because I find it so good.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, one of our favorite things is to hear your own name said, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I find them.
Speaker 1:I find their name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, you meet a guy named Tom and he spells it T H O M. What's that guy doing Kind of kind of maneuvers? Is that guy trying to pull off?
Speaker 1:What are you doing?
Speaker 2:That means or how about that? What's that name? S A I R O R S E Sersha.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah Say worse, the IE, mm-mm. Sersha. Okay, let's do it, let's do this. You know what I mean? Oh, I love it, love it, love it, yeah, so that's it. And then I, and then I, right away, I was like, oh, I guess I'm going to make up every character's name. And then all of a sudden, the guy shows up named Bobby freelance. I was like, oh, okay, so apparently the pattern isn't make up everybody's name. And there's a guy named Wade, so a Randy. So just every once in a while there's just a guy from Cleveland, like a guy from Ohio, named like a guy who goes to Chipotle, name followed by scary, scary.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:There's just a guy who, like, loves the Yankees and he bowls on Thursday nights and there's a parola, but he's pretty fired up about the new Ultima, you know what I mean Like that guy, Uh, yes, I don't, yes, and then sometimes just the super straightforward American name. Then those names become wondrous and to me like yeah, the weirder the names go, then the more normal they are. One guy shows up on the planet Lone Lane. His name is Greg. Now, that's just as great. So what is Greg doing? That's so great.
Speaker 1:In the book, one of the things I love. You have this theme um, and you get into it more as kind of the book progresses. But there's this organization known as the chairs, which is such a great name, and they control a lot of behind the scenes stuff. I'm curious where do you see the chairs most vividly in our world today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what was interesting to me is the way that, the way that Heen is taught the chairs are like an all-powerful, benevolent structure that's so good, you don't even see them, they just yeah, it's almost like they're like the oxygen. They just make the whole thing run so well and then gradually, obviously you're like wait a second. So what I really found interesting exploring was the ambiguity Are they a totalitarian, ruthless regime that has all these tentacles like Him out doing their surveillance, or is it just like a very loose? Because we don't really ever get much on that and obviously there's a book two and three and four. But I also love the idea that you, the reader, like your question. I love your question because you, the reader, can make up a North Korea level scheming, ruthless scheming. But there's also a great deal of it that you're actually filling in a bunch of spaces Because Heen gets.
Speaker 2:We know he has a mechanic. We know Voh is at the training center who sort of gives him the piece of verandie. We know that there's the guy with the mustache and the woman whose lap he wants to crawl in when he's first interviewed, but we don't ever have him telling you anything about people who are like I mean, if you fill this form out, your health insurance will be on page three. So that's one of the things I really liked is and even now you realize, I actually would argue that the polarization of America is actually an illusion because it keeps pitting right against left. I actually think it's powerful elites versus everybody. Oh, everybody else, yeah, yeah, I mean, if you look historically, that's the real thing. Do you know what I mean? Like you go, it's Democrat and Republican. No, that's how you would keep people's attention off the real issues, convince everybody that it's this side versus this side and then make healthcare incredibly difficult and make housing prices in lots of places insane and just keep everybody you know what?
Speaker 2:I mean. So in some senses, your question about who are the chairs. In some ways it feels like that's the question of the day Right now, like, well, you think about, it was at 2008,. Two and a half million Americans lost their homes because of banking mortgage systems and no one went to jail or really was penalized in any way. Who was responsible for that? Like, wait a second, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wait a second, and people made millions of dollars being paid to do jobs in which they oversaw millions of people losing their homes, which is fascinating Like if you want to be a conspiracy person, you don't even have to have conspiracies. It's just like what happened. Yeah, you don't even have to make up anything or like go searching, it's just sitting right there.
Speaker 1:And then we tell people it'll trickle down to them and you're going to benefit indirectly.
Speaker 2:Right, and you have now, well, 40, ronald Reagan's 1980, you now have the data that wealth is more and more and more in the hands of less and less people. Like we have massive reams of data now that it trickle down doesn't actually work, yeah.
Speaker 1:And what's fascinating is, you know, when he first kind of gets exposed to the chairs, you as the reader are excited for him because you know he gets a spaceship and he gets all these cool things and he's meeting cool people and the first impression is like wow, this is amazing and it's only after 40 progresses that you go.
Speaker 2:Okay, there's something else going on here and I noticed how many people like in the interviews have been like. At first I thought it was like a utopia, like you were writing a book about. Here's my vision for the world. And then I started to realize, oh, it turns out, it's humans. It turns out which I love when Sir Pauling teaches about exchanges. Like all cultures, we make exchanges. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, right out of the gate, when you get into the earth unit, you know, at the beginning of the book it was fascinating to dive into, to go. Yeah, this is probably where this is going, yeah, I mean, yeah, that sounds about right, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you think about your, like your question, about the chairs. Like in a number of American cities right In Los Angeles, people experiencing homelessness is like a, it is like a crisis emergency, like it's so massive. And then you think, yeah, there aren't, apparently there aren't homeless people in Singapore, like they just cleaned up the streets. So, yeah, we could, we could fix these Portland, seattle, san Francisco, phoenix we could, we could, you could clean up all the streets and then you'd have another set of horrors. Let's just get some bulldozers and flatbed trucks and just scoop up all those tents and take those people somewhere.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, and then everybody'd be like look, the streets are clean, we got our cities back. Yeah, now we have a different set of horrors. So that's that tension which obviously, as the book progresses, he is like wait a second, I yeah, obviously I was. Yeah, apparently the author was maybe trying making peace with some things.
Speaker 1:There's so much, though, about the, the human condition in that you know, this idea of you want to believe it's good, you want to believe there's an easy answer, there's an easy select. Yeah, right, right, right, like, just make it, make it feel good. And then you, you keep going it's not that easy, it's not that simple, it's not that you know, and and you go, oh, now I have to keep asking the questions and I'm not going to like what I see, and then what?
Speaker 1:And then there's one in the reaction and you, just you feel that in Heen's journey. Yeah, yeah, the chairs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and. And. Then like when Dill Tut is? You find out that Dill Tut's actually got this defiant, like, shaking his fist at the man, and he's like it's an overcorrection. They, they responded to the trauma of that loss of the earth and he has this larger like and they went the other direction and clamped down. He has this very nuanced course correction, understanding that you're like wait, oh yeah, and that fascinated. It's so interesting to me how you create like this, these worlds on these planets and these people with these made up names in this other place sometime in some other time. And like the interviews I get to do about this book are all like what we're talking about. Everybody immediately wants to go to 2024.
Speaker 1:This world politics, governance, economics Well, that's why I think it's so powerful because you go it's, it's a, you know it's, it's a space book and you know. And so that almost implies like, let your imagination go to some far off land, you know where. It's not real. But the conversations in the book are the secret sauce, in my opinion, because that's when you get into all these things and then it just invites you to. You know what? What is that for us, and how you know? And all of a sudden you're looking at the world and you know he's. He's job is to notice things, and so you're noticing things in the real world as you experience this book. It's brilliant.
Speaker 2:I love it. That's very kind of you. That's cool Okay.
Speaker 1:This is a lighter heart, lighter question. But just I'm curious. So he's job series five, new signed seven, yeah, is there a job with a six in it that we're going to meet soon?
Speaker 2:What are the people who guide who? What's? This is a section six. Who are the people who guard the sort of outer boundaries? I think there's section sixes. There might be a six.
Speaker 1:Is there? Because I went back and I literally got the, the Kindle version, and I Googled the word six. So I'm like did I miss the six and I didn't?
Speaker 2:find it, because I don't spell words numbers, I just write the number I did.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting, I did, I did the number, I could swear. Well then, I must have missed the six job. Like what's the six job?
Speaker 2:Well then, we'll have to make one up. This is why we make up things.
Speaker 1:It's your world, we're all living in it. Okay, so you got to. You have some, some homework to do, the lockdown, the six job.
Speaker 2:And, by the way, one of the joys of this is somebody asked what was it? They had like a technical question about how something worked economically. And as they asked it, I was thinking, oh, this is interesting. I could see like almost like, choose your adventure. I could cause a part of me. I was like, wait, you probably should just remind them. You know, this is just all made up Like that's not like. But as I thought of that, as they were asking the question, I had this other thing like oh no, rob, you know exactly what we're going to do here, so I no-transcript. They finished their very technical question and then I just made up a very technical Explanation for an answer and they were like. And they were like oh good, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Notes to yourself later like that's got to be put in right, right right, right, like, like you know where.
Speaker 2:This is all just made up.
Speaker 1:No, but that's a testament to your ability to create a world that people are mentally living in, right? I mean, this is, I think, of like JK Rowling answering fan questions about Right, right, the easiest how did Harry, you know? And it's like none of this is real.
Speaker 2:But when you go there, you, you, you're there and you want to know, and you, you know, and I think a great story, right right, like like when Game of Thrones was sort of peak, had its peak moments, and people were like you know, westeros is really in trouble like yeah, I'm just disease, or likes that show, succession, and who do you think is people like? Who do you think will get the company? What do you think he's gonna? Who do you think is gonna actually succeed him? Which kid and like we say that Just very straight face I don't know, even though they've already Written the show, filmed it and it's sitting in the computer somewhere right at HBO. We're discussing a Made-up story that we're going, they're going to show us a story They've already told at some point in a couple of months. We're all discussing what's gonna happen as if it hasn't happened yet. Yeah, human beings, what in the world?
Speaker 1:It was like the show loss. I remember I'd watch it in real time every week and with their group of friends, and then we would all like what, what's the with the hatch and what's you know, and like the codes, and like we would like go hours and hours and then you get to the end of, like you guys didn't answer most of these, you just left us hanging, you know and my friend Carlton, who we actually made a couple shows together.
Speaker 2:He made that show, carlton cues, oh yeah. And to this we've done a number of events together and what was really funny to me because every time we do something we've done something together People ask him questions and everybody asked lost questions and always just be he'll. He'll just be like straight up yeah, I have no idea what the deal is with the polar bear. I love it. I love when I know he's gonna say that, when I would watch the crowd, when he would ask, when he would be like, yeah, I don't know, and I just watch people like wait, you don't know, you're gonna I'm, I'm so good.
Speaker 1:It's a good story when you're, when you're sucked in. Okay, so in your, in your book, you make bread a surprisingly central part of the story. Okay, so here's my question is this a Not so subtle connection to Jesus, who referred to himself as the bread of life?
Speaker 2:or is this?
Speaker 1:something you see in a totally different way.
Speaker 2:Never, really that never crossed my mind. Oh no, well, I mean, you know, I don't know. Make it whatever you want, I just like bread. I actually there's a. There's this restaurant down the street from my house, here down the hill that's. They have this stucco hut Out in front, that's under this big tree, and in the mornings, wednesday through Sunday, they have this wooden rack and they put out these fresh loaves of organic sourdough and I go down and get a loaf and Something about bread. That's like. It's so simple and and elemental and yet good bread is like. It's just so great. It's like what we all, when we all talk about what we actually the moments when we feel most alive. It's generally there was a sunset, it's coffee, there was a kid running in the grass, we were walking the dog.
Speaker 2:You know, what I mean. We have some wine, we got glass of wine. Well, it's so funny. Yeah, it's like we don't.
Speaker 2:We generally describe these moments that are so elemental, they're so Elegant in their simplicity. That's, I think, that the I just loved. And then I love the idea of the story that's all over the place. He, and then we find out, was a hundred and thirty seven hundred thirty eight planets he's been to. But then he finds himself in this bakery, around this table, folding bread with there's like four or five or six of them, and the whole big, what wide, broad Spatial narrative collapses into this very tight, literally physical space. But then present in that space is love and loss, and, and, and, and, and. I loved the whole universe is like in this bakery with just these few people. That, to me, was a very beautiful Thing. You can see the infinite as endlessly outward. You can also see the infinite as you and I having this exchange right now and the sort of Bottomless depth to the interactions that we have. There's an infinite infinity there as well. Totally, it reminded me.
Speaker 1:When I was a lead pastor, my wife and I would often we were in Portland, we would take couples out and go wine tasting, like on a Saturday, and so we'd, afternoon with a couple, get to know him over a few glasses of wine incredible experience. I would see them the next day at church and it was like a completely different person, completely different tone, completely different conversation, and I just noticed that happened so often. I was like it's, it's the Saturday thing, that was real, like that was real, that you know, and it's bread and wine, and you know, it's communion in a, in a very yeah, well, this, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like that's, that was where people were being authentic and real and and so I don't you know Again, I, just as I was experiencing your book, I had overtones of that, like when Nune gets to the whole bread speech, I mean I'm like in my car, like pulled over to the side of the road, like I have to know what she says next.
Speaker 1:I mean it's that I think of all of it is the most gripping part. Like you literally can't, you can't push stop in that scene. You have to keep going to know when is this playing out and I've heard you talk about writing that scene. That is kind of float out of you, but that scene is fascinating, but it invited me to like. This is what it is. This is something big and beautiful and bringing us all together, and there's like this Beauty in it that you, that you bring out through this character, and it's just so good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, that's really. That's really interesting. We're saying about this bread is Holy, because all bread is holy, because all of life Is holy, like, like it all is its very own self and, yeah, there's something about the very Simple every day. Like you, it's almost like your question about the people on Saturday and the people on Sunday is which one is the temple? Right, the one doesn't claim to be, but is the other claims to be. It's like, it's, it's almost like. Sometimes the most powerful thing is not to name it. The moment you name it in place, come into this space and the following things are going to happen the ego struck construct is already so strong around it isn't free to be itself because it already has these things that it's supposed to do. Yet the day before, on a Saturday, we're just present to each other Seeing what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, the one, yes, the Sunday. One says welcome to the temple. Saturday one says Doesn't even say anything because it just understands the whole earth is a temple just welcome to being alive. Yes, right right, right, right, fasting bread, our dough bread so good.
Speaker 1:Now in the audiobook you can hear yourself cracking up. I mean, there's like it comes through very easy, and this happens a lot in your podcast, where you I mean you're like you have the ability to make yourself laugh. It's so great. I'm curious how have you learned to, I would say, like, focus on joy in the midst of a lot of heavy things you're talking about? So again, this book is not like just fluff. I mean, you're talking about grief and loss and big things, and yet you hear joy in your voice. How have you figured out how to do that, how to focus on that?
Speaker 2:Pain, the, and some ways I came from a world where you Just keep moving, just keep producing, just keep working, just keep clean, just keep hoping, and Some ways for decades now, learning how to be present to the sadness and disappointment and loss and pain in some ways that's been the sort of Invitation for me is To not just, hey, everything's gonna be fine, we're good, we're good, but no, we're a lot. It feels very lost, there's a malaise, avoid an abyss, and that Always takes you into the absurdity of this experience. Hmm, like there's an absurdity at the heart of the human experience. That's why we love comedians. But but if you're the, the love that all of this is happening within, absurdity is the door in, because if you're still Trying to get it To make sense, you're in trouble. Hmm, even you you asked about Jesus.
Speaker 2:I think about man owns of. Man owns a vineyard and hires a bunch of people and they all show up at different times. He pays them the same. It's like people talk about what. If you were to, you know dive, what would you want on your tombstone? And I'd be like, well, I would just prefer to be scattered in the ocean at my favorite surf break. But if there was a slogan I would Be like blessed is the one who's in on the joke.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean there's an absurdity to all. This Doesn't mean you aren't crying, doesn't mean you aren't beating your chest, doesn't mean you aren't sad, lost, angry, confused, that's. That's all actually part of it. It's a necessary part of it. It's almost like if you aren't Experiencing that, you're not experiencing the fullness of this experience. But you also you're in a ball of rock hurtling through space at 67,000 miles an hour, while it rotates at a thousand miles an hour, what you know? I mean, yeah, people show up at different times, they all get paid the same amount. What, what? There is a, there is an absurdity that you sort of surrender to, and that's actually where you get. That's actually where you get to.
Speaker 2:The seriousness of this. All is through the absurdity. Hmm, look at this, look what we're doing here. Okay, I mean, anybody's ever had a kid? We make people, you kidding me. They walk around outside your body. Your heart walks around outside your body. So I think in some ways, I'm. I think I came when you're younger. You tend to take it quite seriously. Am I any good? You want to make your mark, you want to have a purpose, it's great. Fine. You want to change the world? I used to say I want to change the world with a straight face, and then you just get wrecked enough that you realize there's a different curriculum. And perhaps that's where you actually think about the people who have shaped you the most. They probably weren't like Jeremy. You better, you should, you don't you got to. They were probably had a wink.
Speaker 1:Yeah man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jeremy, it's good to be you. Yeah, you playing that one out, that's cool. You know what I mean. There's a lightness on the other side of the heaviness. You push through the heaviness and yeah, that's. I think that's how it. Yeah, I think that's how it works. I think it's how it's worked for me. So that's yeah. So sometimes I'm in my garage recording a podcast, laughing and laughing at the absurdity of lots of it and, weirdly enough, that's how I get to my heart, and maybe other people's as well.
Speaker 1:The thing that I would say is probably the most moving part of the story for me was and I'll kind of put this in my words I feel like he gets to a point. He realizes he's good at something that he no longer knows Right.
Speaker 1:That struck such a chord with me because I spent, you know, two decades in church ministry and I felt like I was, I was good at it, you know, I had built the resume, I had experience, I had all that. And then I got to a point where I don't, I don't want to do this anymore, and there's like a loss, there's a confusion, there's a you know grief. All this and he, I think, gets to that moment and I'm telling you, when I got to that part of the book, it was like this, like whoa, like heaviness of, like this is, this is your story too. This is you growing up One thing and then realizing I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 1:I don't really know the question behind that, other than you. You have modeled this. You know you've gone from such different worlds. You know you've gone from the, the rock star pastor that everyone's trying to emulate, and look, look, how fast the church is growing too. I mean a very different version of Ravel today. You know the, the artist and the author and all of this, and I was even thinking of, like John Piper saying farewell Ravel, is that same moment right Of like you're good at something and you're leaving that behind Like I don't know. Can you let us in on like any of that feeling for you? It's obviously coming out in this character.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah. So at one point in your life, at one point for a person developmentally, wait. For a person developmentally wait you're telling me there's something I could, I could work at and get good at, I could get better at it and and it is like helps people and wait, I would call it the triple and I might get paid for it. What a what a win. That's what. That'd be incredible. And then at another moment, I'm good at it and it helps people and I get paid for it. Might be the worst reason to do it, because it cuts you off from what's happening now your heart and most people know divorces but not graduations Like.
Speaker 2:So imagine your friend who's like hey, I'm done, I left working at such and such place. Notice our reflective scandal. Right, someone got either got fired, scandal, some failure of some sort. Just for how many people they hear about an ending and it's instantly okay. What really happened, as opposed to why'd you leave? Because it was good. It was a good, it was a good, that's a great season.
Speaker 2:And I've asked, I'll like I'll ask a crowd how many of you relationship, town, job, something stayed too long? Like every hand at some point in your life, every hand goes up. How many of you there was a moment when it was time to be done and you held on because of comfort, stability, et cetera. I do these sessions here in Ohio once a month. People sit under these trees for two days with me and if you could see person after person, they sit across from me and we do this work where they, we watch them, find clarity, but how many people are, oh, I'm done.
Speaker 2:And there's this really interesting myth of expertise, which is well, I've been doing this and I gained these certain skills. So obviously the next thing I do will have to take all of these skills and transfer them over into the next thing, which which actually is rooted in such a deep conditioning around productivity, like, but I, I, I spend all these years doing this. I don't want that to go to waste. Wait, wait, wait, but you did it. Like you, you did that for 20 years. That's what those skills were for. Maybe they carry over, but like, yeah, you did that, now you're doing this. So you see how deep the conditioning is around. Everything I've done has to show how it was worthwhile and productive very clearly, or it was a waste. Is that talk about? It's like the industrial revolution run wild in your mind, like that's the inner capitalist. Everything has to produce a thing infinitely into the future, as opposed to man. That was a good run. That was like. That was like what a great chapter. Now let's try something else, or even that thing about.
Speaker 2:You find something, and then that's what you do, year after year after year, forever in a particular direction, which is lovely. There are people do that. I think it's great, wonderful. And then for other people, I did this for a while. I was following something and then it led me here, so I left that and then I did this for a while. Then it took me over here and the number of people I work with who like, feel bad because they're like and then I did this, then I went to culinary school, then I was a travel agent, then I and they're like, I'm just been all over the place and I will always just say, hold on, take a deep breath. You know what that sounds like. And they're always like what Pretty great life Sounds really interesting. Where did it? But it never amounted to anything. Well, you just said it's been quite an adventure, what there was something like a building named after you.
Speaker 2:Well, what do you mean? Did you see what I mean? Like how much of this is actually just an ego construct, that it's like a, like a desperate desire to sort of freeze it in time, as opposed to a lot of times. Kristen, I don't know what we're following, just following something, and you're just organizing your life around it, because that's where the life is at, and we'll know it when we see it.
Speaker 1:And I would just say, watching you, I mean it feels like you're always 10 years ahead of the rest of us, like the things you're thinking about. It's like 10 years from now. And you know, even like when you wrote love wins, I wasn't there yet theologically on that, and I remember reading it and I'm like, you know, I wasn't bothered by it but I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm not, I can't get there yet. And now I am and I look back and go, what was my issue, you know? But it was like I just I wasn't, I wasn't there yet, you know, and I think I'm like, oh, rob's just ahead, like you're just, you're, you get there. But I'm curious, is there, is there an emotional weight of that? I mean, we, you know, we laughed about the Piper line but like, did that hurt? Like being the kind of on the early cusp of always, always being on the edge of that, or well, part of the grief of your journey.
Speaker 2:For sure, like in my late twenties and thirties, what has been 20, literally 15, 20 years ago, love wins was 2011. Part of that was like wait a second, I'm not playing this game. That's what happened to me with that book is the people who didn't like that book was like, oh wait, I'm like I'm not playing this game. I'm not trying to prove that I'm whatever Bible enough or something. So part of that there was there's a yeah, um, part of it was I wasn't playing that game. So somebody going this isn't Orthodox enough. Well, yeah, that wasn't a squad goal of mine. So that was some of that. Some of that was just basic. Yeah, like lots and lots of people saying really bonkers things has like, yeah, that's like a weird sort of stab in the heart like what? It's almost like wait, you don't have a problem me, you have a problem with your tradition. Hmm, but this is nothing new. Yeah, and part of it was I do remember distinctly that's was like okay, now I'm done.
Speaker 2:Really that was it Mm-hmm, yeah, I'm gonna do something else. Yeah, yeah, part of it was like yeah, it was some sort of like gift, of like you were playing something out in this container and Now we're done. Yeah, it was like an end of a chapter. It's like a very distinct end of a chapter. Mm-hmm, that's interesting. Think about that, and I haven't thought about that in a while.
Speaker 1:What's? What's the dominant emotion you felt in that?
Speaker 2:Well, the interesting thing is it started God's going way back. I remember doing a. It started early on.
Speaker 2:I started talking about women's equality, like 2001, and then there was a group of people who organized to have me removed from the church that I started, which was like wait, what? So there was like an absurdity to that which was like. And then there was Spirituality and ecology and the any any vision for the world that doesn't begin with the earth itself. Like you can't, what are you doing? And then I remember there was a Some Christmas sermons protesting the war in Iraq, which apparently wasn't what people wanted to hear at Christmas, specifically families who had children who weren't gonna be home at Christmas because they were fighting in Iraq. So talking about the US Industrial military complex wasn't their idea of like I think, well, christmas series, so so I think your question goes back ten years before that and I was just following something, and so it's like almost like playing a different game. You know what I mean. Yeah, like wait.
Speaker 2:Well, if you pull that thread, it brings you here, and then if you pull that, it brings you here, and so people having a problem with that or the Was almost like a wait. I'm not. I'm not trying to Build a fortress and then protect it. We're out here Exploring. So the emotion like your question about the emotion was more like Wait, what's going on here? Like I'm not trying to do that, I'm fuzzy on where we're Missing each other. I don't know that's so long ago, but all but most of all, it was a Very personal exploration and everything just kept getting more interesting, more beautiful, more hopeful, more real. That's what it felt like, and there was always people who were like, oh my god, me too. I totally get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's what I say, I think, for the rest of us watching you. You have modeled that in such a beautiful way and you know, I just, I just watch you and I go. That has to be it. That has to take a toll on you. You know it has to be when you're, when you're out in front. You're the first one kind of experience, that. But you give guys like me freedom to go. I don't have to keep doing that. I don't know that. You know. I know right, reinvent I can, I can dream, except when even you writing this book.
Speaker 1:It's not a raw bell book, you know. It's like who cares and it's just you. But you're giving you're giving us freedom to say like, don't, you, don't have to be who you were, like you can be the the next version of.
Speaker 2:I just feel like this feels like a Just like a straight jacket or something to yeah, yeah, mm-hmm. So that's so. In some ways there's a certain art. It's not blinders I'm trying to think what the word is. There's a thing you're doing, so, no matter how Painful or confusing or like wait, so-and-so said they're boycotting, wait what? I Remember people would say things like do you hear that such and such, whatever Organization is boycotting you?
Speaker 2:And I'd be like am I, Do I? But is that something I'm part of that? I don't know, like I wasn't ever aware that I was a. You know they're questioning you or whatever, and I would Just like big wait, was I ever that? I'm not sure what even is I, just so what? So I think part of it is it's always about new creation. So you and your wife are with this couple at a vineyard on a Saturday, having this Profound connecting experience with other humans, this other couple. It's like something within you goes that's, that's what I'm here for. So, as opposed to, I don't want to be a part of that thing. No, this is this table, this is the table. So for for a lot of people when I, who are like, who are very upset with where they're coming from. They're it's almost like they're looking backwards at the thing they're coming from or out of, as opposed to new creation, which is so. It's like what do you want to do? It's next we want to create.
Speaker 1:Love you want to make what's what's.
Speaker 2:Let's get real quiet. Forgive who you got to forgive. Grieve whatever you got to grieve now what you want to do and an idea about it you're gonna go to school, you can start a business.
Speaker 2:You're gonna get a new job, you got a landscape, your backyard, I don't know it's. What is it? And in my experience, just and it was just earlier this week a group of you here in Ohio and just watching person after person Literally making a new world like artists, activists, entrepreneurs, just With ideas and like I'm gonna try this next sounds fantastic, love it. It's very calm, centered. What do you want to?
Speaker 1:do All right. Last question, rob. I love it. What is something that is blowing your mind right now?
Speaker 2:My daughter just discovered literature. She's in an honors English class freshman in my school and discovered, like reading a text, like reading great literature, and then the layers and subtleties of depth and nuance and interpretation. And they just did to kill a mockingbird. And I was just saying to her have we been talking about this every night? She's got two papers a week and watching her like Get into the story and then, and then the teacher is a master at getting these prompts for the that For sure to like really reflect on what's happening in the story. And then just a couple nights ago she was showing me I don't even know what year, it was, 1940 ish the Gregory Peck black and white Film of to kill a mockingbird.
Speaker 2:And my daughter, who has the world on her phone, violets, like, check this out, look at the scene. Okay, look at the scene, look at it. It's, even if she's like, absolutely enraptured with the very simple black and white shooting of it. And and she loves the crafting of sentences and like. So I now like each evening I'm like, and in the moment now she's gonna be like hey, we do some stuff, we work, we work a little bit time, bounce some ideas off. You Just blow in my mind that's. And yesterday she's like guess what we're starting now? I was like what she's like Romeo and Juliet. The teacher assigned Characters to different people and then we read it out loud in class Wow, she's like. She's like who wants to be Romeo? And she's like this guy who she's always telling about story. She's like I'll be Romeo and she's like he went for it. Love the dude. The first day of Romeo and Juliet, you're 14. Teacher says who wants to read the Romeo part? And there's a guy who's like come in obviously me oh.
Speaker 2:The best, just the best. She just uh, yes, yesterday or two days ago, she was just why I had to change. This time she's like I got us dune part two tickets. Oh nice, she and I are about to, we're about to go have a dune experience so excited.
Speaker 1:Oh, rob, seriously, thank you for taking the time to talk and.
Speaker 2:I loved it. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1:Seriously. Just you know, having watched you literally for decades, Read your work I mean wildly influential in my own life, in my own, your phenomenal communicator. You, you live what you talk about and it's been so fun to explore that in your latest book. It's been fun to explore it with you in person and I'm stoked for more people to to be exposed to this book and to these ideas and to go on their own journey of New creations as well. Thank you, friend, for all man.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad we met. This is great you.