As we uncork the 20th episode of Cabernet and Pray, I'm joined by Caleb Campbell, not just to relish in our shared love for a fine Cabernet Sauvignon but to unpack the complexities of Christian nationalism. Caleb, a pastor and author, brings his upcoming book "Disarming Leviathan: Loving your Christian Nationalist Neighbor" to the table, serving up a compassionate perspective on an issue that's stirring the pot in our societal fabric. Together, we navigate the fine line between fellowship and ideology, examining how our understanding of scripture can be distorted and offering a toast to wisdom and authenticity in our communities.
Have you ever found yourself in a place where reaching across the aisle felt more like crossing enemy lines? This episode reveals Caleb's personal journey through missionary work amidst American Christian nationalism, where an environment of division is met with a message of restoration. Through stories of heart-to-heart engagement and the cultivation of genuine empathy, we shed light on the transformative power of spiritual well-being in bridging divides. As we tackle the concept of 'hermeneutical magic,' we guide listeners on how to spot when scripture is being twisted by opportunists masquerading as shepherds.
Wrapping up with a blend of personal victories and shared struggles, this episode of the podcast is a testament to resilience. From the trials of 2020, where Caleb led a congregation through the storm, to the joys of discovery in a French wine cellar, we take you through moments that have shaped his understanding of leadership, community, and self-care. Caleb's insights, brimming with practical wisdom, elevate our conversation, reminding us of the strength in diverse and authentic communities, the hope that lies ahead with upcoming book releases, and the warm anticipation of family vacations. Raise your glass with us as this episode celebrates the journey of faith, the power of community, and the courage to embrace our differences.
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
As we uncork the 20th episode of Cabernet and Pray, I'm joined by Caleb Campbell, not just to relish in our shared love for a fine Cabernet Sauvignon but to unpack the complexities of Christian nationalism. Caleb, a pastor and author, brings his upcoming book "Disarming Leviathan: Loving your Christian Nationalist Neighbor" to the table, serving up a compassionate perspective on an issue that's stirring the pot in our societal fabric. Together, we navigate the fine line between fellowship and ideology, examining how our understanding of scripture can be distorted and offering a toast to wisdom and authenticity in our communities.
Have you ever found yourself in a place where reaching across the aisle felt more like crossing enemy lines? This episode reveals Caleb's personal journey through missionary work amidst American Christian nationalism, where an environment of division is met with a message of restoration. Through stories of heart-to-heart engagement and the cultivation of genuine empathy, we shed light on the transformative power of spiritual well-being in bridging divides. As we tackle the concept of 'hermeneutical magic,' we guide listeners on how to spot when scripture is being twisted by opportunists masquerading as shepherds.
Wrapping up with a blend of personal victories and shared struggles, this episode of the podcast is a testament to resilience. From the trials of 2020, where Caleb led a congregation through the storm, to the joys of discovery in a French wine cellar, we take you through moments that have shaped his understanding of leadership, community, and self-care. Caleb's insights, brimming with practical wisdom, elevate our conversation, reminding us of the strength in diverse and authentic communities, the hope that lies ahead with upcoming book releases, and the warm anticipation of family vacations. Raise your glass with us as this episode celebrates the journey of faith, the power of community, and the courage to embrace our differences.
See audio and video episodes at: https://communionwineco.com/podcast/
Find out more at: https://linktr.ee/communionwineco
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, the podcast where we explore Christianity through the beauty of wine, and today is episode 20. I don't know if this is a milestone. It feels like a milestone to me, so I thought I'd just take a moment and celebrate. 20 episodes feels awesome, especially when this was kind of an idea I had and didn't know if it'd work, and found out. I actually really have enjoyed these conversations and so I want to just take a moment and say thank you. Thank you to all of you who have listened and who have been a part of this, thank you to those who have watched this. It really means a lot to me. The times that I get to hear from you guys have been incredibly meaningful. Uh, as many a podcaster knows, there are days where you wonder am I just talking into the void? Uh, who is listening to this? Who's watching this? And you know I'll run into someone at the gym or get an email from someone that they'll tell me something of an episode that meant a lot to them and that's been super cool. So I just want to say thank you for being along on this journey. I've really enjoyed this and continue to keep working on how to get better, how to improve these conversations, how to keep having meaningful dialogues. If you would and you haven't already would you consider giving a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts? That would help us out, obviously, sharing this with other people. We have enough episodes now for someone to drop in and there's a bunch to check out, right, and they could dive into a whole bunch of episodes. So if you would consider leaving a five-star review, that would mean the world to me. Also wanted just to see if you'd consider sharing your favorite episode. If you have one episode that you're like, man, I really like that one, would you send the link to someone and let them know why that meant a lot to you? I would love to keep seeing this grow and to reach more people with, obviously, ideas that have been incredibly meaningful to me, and I've heard from a number of you that you've had the same reaction.
Speaker 1:I will tell you the thing that surprised me the most in doing this podcast is how much I personally am learning, and part of it is, you know, a lot of these people are writing books, and I'm reading their book with the intent of. I know I'm going to interview them after I read this and so I can ask specific questions about material, and that's just been really cool for me to be able to take the ideas that they're putting in the book, take them further, figure out how to apply them, and that's really what we're going to get with today's episode as well. This is a book that isn't even out yet, and I love where today's conversation goes. Today's episode is with Caleb Campbell. Caleb is a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, arizona. He's been there since 2006, and he's been the lead pastor since 2015. He's the founder and director of Disarming Leviathan Ministries. He's a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and he serves as the regional director for the Surge Network. Caleb lives in Phoenix with his wife and his children, and his new book, disarming Leviathan Loving your Christian Nationalist Neighbor comes out July 2nd, and so we had a chance to sit down with Caleb before the book even comes out. You can pre-order this and get a copy. This is an incredible book at a time where Christian nationalism is a huge deal. Even if you haven't known what it's called or what it is, no doubt as you listen or watch this episode, you're going to realize oh, that's what they're talking about. I've seen this. This is another book I strongly easily recommend to you, and I'm grateful for the conversation with Caleb that you get to enjoy today and just the incredible thoughtfulness of his answers, so enjoy episode 20. Well, Caleb, welcome to the podcast today. It's so great to have you.
Speaker 1:Before we dive in, let's talk about what we're drinking. That sound means that it's time for me to talk about something delicious that I have in my glass. I actually have a 2019 Barolo. This is from Italy. It's a region in Italy with the Nebbiolo grape, so if you guys have ever had the Nebbiolo grape, I'm a fan. As I was enjoying this one, I got a lot of tertiary stuff, but I got cherry syrup, cola and then wood smoke, sweet tobacco and leather. So if you like a little bit more earthiness to your red wine, nebbiolo is a great one for you. So, caleb, how about you? What are you drinking today?
Speaker 2:Jeremy, I'm a patriot and I am drinking today the Federalist, handsomely adorned with a image of Benjamin Franklin. This is a Cabernet Sauvignon from Lodi, and I am told that I should be tasting hints of black cherry out of this rich, full-bodied wine, and my palate is not sophisticated. So it tastes like wine. Okay, but patriotic wine.
Speaker 1:Okay, so here's the most important question Do you like it? Yeah, dude, that's all that really matters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, loving it.
Speaker 1:We complicate things but at the end of the day, there's wines you like, there's wines you don't like. Drink the wines you like and hopefully for the listeners, watchers of this pod, you've been exposed to new wines and new things and that's part of the fun of what we're doing and that's part of the fun of what we're doing. But we will get to why. It's amazing that he's got who he's got on that bottle. That's going to come here in just a second. I want to begin with a question, just to help us get a little idea of who is Caleb. This is one of my favorite questions to ask most of our guests. The question is very open-ended. Take it wherever you want. The question is how has your faith changed in the last 10 years? So I love showing people the trajectory that faith is growing. It is dynamic. It's not just you've got everything figured out and then you white-knuckle it until you die. Love to hear your journey.
Speaker 2:What's the last 10 years look like for you? Yeah, well, I mean a lot of change, um, one really core one is shifting from a view of the church, uh, as a bounded entity, meaning something with borders, that you have to, you know, get in, uh, through a certain boundary marker, um, so that there's an in-group and out-group. Moving from a bounded idea of the church so this would be like certain doctrinal statements that determine who's an insider, who's an outsider, certain cultural practices who's an insider, who's an outsider uh but rather seeing the church as a centered organization or a centered reality, namely it's centered on Christ and that I am in fellowship with anyone else whose posture towards the center is the same as mine, namely, we're following Jesus. So we may articulate the text differently, we may come from different cultural backgrounds, we may have different ideologies of how we articulate Jesus, but if you're a disciple of Jesus and I'm a disciple of Jesus, then we're part of the church and we can hold fellowship together.
Speaker 2:And a lot of that just came from studying, you know, really, the New Testament. I mean, jesus is always putting misfits at his table. They don't belong together, according to the kingdoms of this world. And then the apostle Paul really caught this vision of the church when he, like in Ephesians, he says that the manifold wisdom, or the multicolored, multifaceted wisdom of God is put on display when the whole church is unified across all these boundary markers. And we're unified not in our coming convictions or political preferences or economic status, but we're united in Christ. So that shift I mean you can refer to it as an ecclesiological shift from the church as a bounded entity People have to believe certain things before they belong and shifting that to a centered approach that if you're following jesus, and so am I, then we're disciples would you?
Speaker 1:would you say that christians are good at this?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, humans aren't good at this right. We are so desperate for safety and belonging that we answer it not with the beauty and the the beautiful vision of the kingdom of god that scares us. So we draw the boundaries closer to home so we can feel safe and so we can find belonging with people who are similar to us uh, and christians are have. Many times we've organized entire structures around defining who's in and who's out so that I can feel safe and if you transgress the boundary, you're out. We're really good with the boundary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of times we are, and I think that that comes just from a deep, deep longing for safety and belonging and we forget about the resurrection. We forget that Jesus is present with us now and that he can bear the weight of our differences and that he can empower us to do it. So instead, we defer to boundary making.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I want to dive into your book. You wrote this book that's coming out soon, disarming Leviathan, and there's so many ideas here. We're going to get to a handful of them that I just really enjoyed. But one of the things reading this you casually threw into detail later in the book. That is almost like you just kind of worked it in no big deal and I got to tell you this is the first time you and I have met. I don't know a ton of your story outside of this book, so I'm reading it All of a sudden I'm like holy cow, like okay, there's a fun fact. You have this line In my teens I gave up on church and became a neo-Nazi skinhead, yep. And you say it so casually in the book like well, of course, that's what I did. You know, of course.
Speaker 1:Like obviously that's what got me here. To most of us that's like oh, I don't know a lot of neo-Nazi skinheads. That wasn't my group in high school. What was that journey like for you? You obviously discuss a little bit in the book, but just tell us about it. I mean that's an extreme stance to take, that you went there and then came out of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, went there and then came out of it. Yeah, so one of the reasons why I didn't draw attention to it sooner is I didn't want the book to be about that part of my life primarily. I actually wrestled a lot with do I include it or not, because I'm a pastor of an evangelical Bible church in North Phoenix and I'm very familiar with the evangelical industrial complex that likes to make money on showcasing these stories of radical life change and ignoring the small ways the Spirit of God works in everybody's life. You know, you know this kind of this spectacle in testimony stories, so I know that you say the words exactly. You said you know Nazi skinhead, that there there's a spectacle ization of that that I was trying to avoid, because I don't, I don't want to discount people who don't have a story where everyone goes, oh, my goodness, you know, wow, um, because Jesus power is made known in all of our lives. Uh, it's just, some things get really, um, elevated and platformed over others, and so I didn't want to platform that, you know, cause it's spicy, it's attention getting. Yeah, it's dramatic and I want to play into that. I. It's dramatic, me was in in that season my life.
Speaker 2:I was so desperate to find safety, belonging and purpose, and I found it in that community. They invited me in, they gave me safety. We're going to have each other's back. We refer to each other's brothers. There was access to, you know, manpower and protection, and girls and beer, and uh, the ideology really comes second.
Speaker 2:Uh, adhering to the ideology was only in service of belonging to the community. Um, what I mean is I wasn't like sitting down reading books and like reasoning myself to neo-nazi skinhead and then saying I should find some like-minded individuals. No, it's, you're at a party, you start hanging out, they invite you out next week and you just slowly get discipled and then what? What happens is you they're saying, you know, we believe in this, we believe in this, and so you're kind of like nodding your head, and then you find one day you're like actually I believe this, and so there's an acculturation. That happens, I think that happens to all of us, and so the fact that it's an IT skinhead is certainly spectacle, but it is something that's common to the whole human experience.
Speaker 1:I mean, I got to imagine your family friends. Family friends, you know, have to be concerned by this season of time yeah yeah, for sure yeah, I mean I was finding friendship in the movement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I mean, when I got out of it, I have very few friends left. Uh, you know, family certainly expressed some concerns. I usually played it down, um, you know, wouldn't admit what I was doing, uh, and you know, and I was also like leaving the house, you know. So it's kind of that. You know, 18, 19 years old, phase two, or it's kind of like, what are you going to do? Yeah, uh, I mean I wasn't like 13.
Speaker 1:I think I was like 15 or 16 when I started hanging out with the, with the crew. So you've come a long way. Many who knew you maybe in that season would be perhaps surprised to see Caleb the pastor today, who is really developed. You've developed a heart for people wrapped up into Christian nationalism in particular, and I love the way you present it in the book. For those who are listening or watching, who haven't read it. You say it this way.
Speaker 1:I realized in that moment that this woman and the multitude of others influenced by American Christian nationalism were not an enemy to attack. They were a mission field to reach. And then you say I set out to be a missionary to American Christian nationalists, which is a great premise. Right, we think of missionaries. Typical person thinks, oh well, you're moving abroad, you're going and you're like, no, I'm a missionary to this group of people and you have an interesting history with them.
Speaker 1:One of the things that fascinated me in the book is you talk about in your posture as this American missionary. You spend a lot of time going to Christian nationalist gatherings and you write these stories and you do it very objectively. I applaud you. It's very objective, you know, in the book I want to get to the emotional part of that. Was that hard to do? I mean, when you're sitting in these gatherings and you do such a good job of like, here's what they're arguing and you know, and it's very good and your publisher should be proud. But I want to know Caleb, the person when you're sitting there as your adrenaline going, I mean like that's gotta be tough yeah, um it it's.
Speaker 2:It's like, uh, learning a new technique or learning a new skill. The first few times I'm feeling all sorts of things, but eventually you develop a muscle to withstand. You know, profound emotion. In those spaces especially, I think for me the big switch was, you know, shifting from viewing the people in the room as enemies to defeat and instead saying, okay, this is a mission field to reach. I felt that, even though there was a lot of disgust welling up, derision welling up in my heart um, shame, frankly, because these are my people.
Speaker 2:I mean one of the things that's different in this work than cross-cultural mission work is there's family shame in the sense of, like I come from this people, they're me, everyone in this room is me, uh, these are my people, um, and so I. You know, when I fight, when I hear them say something that I think is disgusting, I feel shame by association. Uh, once I'm able to name that uh and then say, okay, but they're caught in something and I have it shifts sometimes by the power of the spirit to compassion, um, like I, like I'm. I'm sorry that you are finding hope in what you just said, uh, but I, I love that you're asking that question. 98% of the work is in my own heart.
Speaker 2:So if I'm rolling into these rallies or these revivals or these big events, uh, embittered, ragey, anxious, anxious it's not going to go well and I'm probably going to cause more damage to myself and to others.
Speaker 2:But if I can do the work of staying connected to the Lord, taking naps, having people pray for me in the parking lot, praying for the people that I'm going to encounter, and say Lord, help me, see them as you see them, help me to see what they can become by your power, you know, those are all ways that we practice the verse I mean, this has been an anchor verse for me but practicing Galatians 6, 1 and 2, which says if any of you is ensnared or entangled or caught up in an evil or transgression, you, who are spiritually mature, seek to restore that person gently and watch out for your own self lest you too be tempted.
Speaker 2:Therefore, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ and that watch out for your own self. That has been crucial for me, because if I'm unhealthy, if I'm not in a position of resting in the Lord and trusting in his power and being guided by the spirit, then I'm not doing missionary work, I'm doing colonizer work. I'm just demanding that you guys be like me and throw the Lee Greenwood CD away and quit eating a Cracker Barrel and, you know, take that bumper sticker off your car. You heathens right, like that's where I go if I'm not healthy and if I'm not watching out for my own self. And it can shift, like in the moment. It can shift and that's again, 98% of the work is in my own heart.
Speaker 1:Like in the moment it can shift, and that's again 98% of the work is in my own heart. That's beautiful. How would you recommend because I think every Christian could take this stance right and whatever you would view as perhaps your mission field anybody that's following Jesus, that wants to positively bring what they've experienced about Jesus for others could have the same approach. What are some tips that you found you mentioned? Have people praying over you. Take some naps. How can people? How can people develop the muscle that you have been developing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, spiritual rhythms of um contemplation. So just especially before and after, uh, an encounter could be going to an event, could just be meeting with Aunt Betty over coffee Asking Lord, where is my heart today? In one of the Psalms it says Lord, search me and know me, see if there is any errant way in me and lead me back to the path of righteousness. And that's an invitation, like Lord, I don't always know what's going on in my own heart.
Speaker 2:What is going on? Would you reveal it to me in any errant way? I want to be drawn back to your path. And then, after, uh, the encounter with the person or the people, what am I feeling? Uh, putting names to what I'm feeling, taking that to the lord in prayer, talking it through with somebody, um, and, like I said, every missionary I know has a prayer team and so sending texts. Hey, I'm going to this rally tonight. Can you guys pray for me? Would some of you follow up with me? Those are some good practices to be in. Also, consistent rhythms of prayer, like, if I'm going to go meet with somebody and I I'm guessing that the conversation might become antagonistic, just to pray, lord, I'm sensing that this will become antagonistic. I'm feeling anxiety about it. Would you help me to attend to your presence now and in the meeting and help me to see this person for what you're making them into, not for how they're exhibiting themselves in this meeting. That's good and that, again, that's just it's a.
Speaker 1:It's developing the muscle which takes repetition, repetition, repetition. That's good In the book. You reference a question that you got from another podcast and I'm not above stealing great ideas from other. Yeah, absolutely, and I also agree with you. It was a great question. The question is what is something that you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about Such a good question? You address it in the book. What are some answers you would have to that?
Speaker 2:Oh, for me, yeah, tons of stuff. Uh, one a critical one to this work especially is I used to believe that we changed in our brains first, that we, we would say things like I think differently about that now. Uh, I used to believe that belief was primarily in the head uh, facts, right, data, that that people would change when they would see new facts and data. Uh, and over time I've come to believe that true change happens not in the head but in the heart, that we are feeling creatures, and then we post hoc logic ourselves. We have this thing back when we used to go to grocery stores before, like home delivery and drive up, you know, trunk delivery stuff, um, and there was this thing called the impulse buy.
Speaker 2:If anyone who's listening or watching has been to costco and you go in for something and you come out with more things, those are impulse buys and what we do is we feel something, we feel it, and then we say to ourselves I needed this. I always said we needed a $400 ice cream machine. I've been looking for that, yeah, yeah, exactly Like. I definitely had it on the list. I might not have written it down. I've been looking for that. Yeah, add reasoning later, which is helping me to make sense of, like, how can these people this person sitting in front of me think so differently than I do, hold to such blatantly what I think is blatantly wrong convictions? And then I present them with good data and there's no change? It's helpful to me to notice, like, if they don't feel safe in our relationship, if they don't feel like we've connected heart to heart, there's no change, it's just defend, defend, defend, defend, defend.
Speaker 1:Argue, argue, argue, argue, argue.
Speaker 2:And by shifting that understanding we can help make sense of why this person is yelling and screaming, why I'm yelling and screaming about a fact or an opinion? Because there's something deeply going.
Speaker 1:There's something going on deep in my heart, uh, that feels under threat and I gotta, you know, fight for that, whatever that was a huge aha moment for me, reading your book and I I shared this with a friend of mine you, you, you kind of make this argument that you know similar to what you said of your own journey with being a neo-Nazi skinhead. The people in Christian nationalism didn't reason their way into this. It became something that met a need for them and there's a belonging and all that. And you know, you make the point like you're not going to just logically talk them out of it because that's not what got them into it. I think that was like an aha for me because I am the logical guy. You know. It's like I love logic, I love a good argument and my kids know, like if you want to get something from dad and I say no, you have to just logically work your way through it. And if I'm impressed with your logical argument I'm a softie I'll be like you know what I didn't want to do. This. That was such a great line of reasoning. I'm going to reward it, you know. And then they just know, like if we can present a really good case to that. You know, and I, I am that person and it was. It was the aha for me of I am the guy that's like, hey, let me give you a really good book on this that can help me and thinking like this is going to be the same aha for them, that it was for me, right, and your book kind of like helped me to relax and be like that's not the way it's going to work. It's going to have to be this deeper thing, and you do such a good job of explaining that. But I think to anyone who may have had the same confusion I've had, of like why are they not listening to this killer argument? I say amazing youtube clip. Right, yeah, it didn't change them. Well, it's because they didn't logically get to their thing. And I don't know if you've read jonathan height, but he talked about the, the elephant and the writer and that made me think of you know, we have this writer that's like this this is how, why I'm doing it. Well, the reality is he's writing an elephant that goes where it wants and then he explains why the elephant's going there after it's already there and there's so much to that. It's really good, but we'll keep moving.
Speaker 1:Another phrase I took from your book that I'd never heard before and I loved it, and you, you credit one of your friends with this phrase, of your friends, with this phrase. The phrase is hermeneutical magic. Yes, and I love this phrase and this is how your friend explained it. Magicians rely on distraction and sleight of hand to accomplish their goals. They are skilled at directing your gaze where they want so they can achieve their deception. In the same way, american Christian nationalist leaders use scripture to misdirect the attention of their audience. This is a profound way of describing, in my opinion, not only Christian nationalism, but a lot of what happens in evangelicalism today. How can someone learn to recognize this? What are the signs? They go whoa, whoa, whoa. There's some sleight of hand here. How can people get better at an awareness of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great. So a few ways that we can discern how a person is making an argument for scripture is do they have a hostile or curious view of the different arguments? What I mean is, if they're advocating for something saying that scripture is clear on this thing, if they're hostile towards different views, that's one thing to notice. This person may be just using this as a proof text. One thing to notice, like this person may be just using this as a proof text. Um, a second piece would be, uh, the distance between the text and the application. Here's what I mean. Uh, I've been in spaces where purveyors of american christian nationalism will say something like this the bible is clear, okay, so just notice that that statement. The bible is clear, which means if you don't sense clarity with what I'm about to say, you're an idiot. The bible is clear, okay, so the bible is clear.
Speaker 2:Jesus said love our neighbor as ourself. That is in the text. Okay, so great. Love our neighbors, which means dot, dot, dot. Yeah, we have to protect our God-given second amendment rights to bear arms, because you can't love your neighbor as yourself If they're being attacked. Obviously, you can't protect them from someone with a gun If you don't also have a gun. Now the distance between the text and that application. There is a great chasm between them. I'm not saying that a person cannot get there, but what I've done is I've said I did all the work for you. Jeremy, I don't know if you remember in elementary school something called long division Math. I hated those math worksheets there's these worksheets.
Speaker 2:They would set home a little 8.5 by 11 piece of paper and there'd be four problems on the math homework and a ton of blank space. The blank space was so that we could do your work and if we got the right answer but we didn't do the work, our teachers would dock us and they'd say you've got to do your work. And if we got the right answer but we didn't do the work, our teachers would dock us and they'd say you got to do the work. What a purveyor of this hermeneutical magic is doing is. They're quote unquote doing the work for you.
Speaker 2:And if they can't show the work, it's likely proof texting or hermeneutical magic. It's not likely an actual conviction or something that's been prayed through and thought through. It may just be a proof text for their point. So if you can sit a person down and say help me understand how you got from the golden rule to we should own bazookas, do some of that work for me.
Speaker 2:Third, if they are unwilling to receive critical, good faith, critical questions about how they got from the text to that point, it's likely that it's not an argument from actual conviction, or at least a conviction that comes from the text and one way that, frankly, I'm concerned about this. I mean, I'm a pastor. I'm very concerned that I'm reading my previously acquired convictions into the text, and so one of the ways that I can keep myself from doing proof texting or hermeneutical magic is to read the text and study the text with a diverse community who sees the text very differently than I do. This could be done through books. This can be done just listening to different Christian traditions who are talking about the same text, and oftentimes, when we come to actual convictions, we say things like you know. This is how I understand the text. This is how I'm thinking about it. What do you think, as opposed to, every Christian who reads the Bible should believe that love your neighbor as yourself means gun rights.
Speaker 1:That's so good, you know. It reminds me when I was a lead pastor. I would often say things like hey, as your pastor, today, I'm going to present this idea and I'm going to share with you what makes the most sense to me. And then I would say you're welcome to disagree with me, and there are other Christians throughout history and throughout the world who have other understandings of what we're going to talk about today. I'm going to share with you what I have found to be the most compelling way to make sense of it. And I would put that disclaimer in.
Speaker 1:And I always thought, like no one can argue if you make a disclaimer like that, right, because I'm literally saying this is not the only way to see it, this is just the way that makes sense to me. You're welcome to disagree. And I was always surprised how much animosity I got in response to that. People go no, pastor, don't say that, tell us what it is. And it was like no, I'm aware there are three dominant ways that the church has interpreted this one passage right, and so I'm going to give you the one that I think is most compelling. But I'm not going to belittle this and there's just something to that I wonder, in your experience, do people who are doing the hermeneutical magic? Is it intentional or is it they're not even aware they're doing it?
Speaker 2:I think it's both. I think there's grifters and true believers. Usually, the true believers have been enculturated into this way of understanding the text. So if you're surrounded by people who say this is how we do Bible, then this is how we do Bible, right. It's that movement from we believe, we believe, we believe to. Well, I believe, I believe, I believe, right, we. We receive the conviction through enculturation. So if I'm part of a church or a denomination or a local network of churches that all talk that same way, I'm learning that that's how you do Bible. Um, it's only when I'm exposed to very different views, uh, that I have an invitation to think wait, am I, am I isolated here? Uh, in this view, am I not being gracious or generous with understanding people from different traditions or cultures or ethnicities to speak to this text? Frankly, if everyone I learn the Bible from thinks like I do and looks like I do, I'm probably going to create a developing myopic view of how the Bible works. But I think that's how the Bible works. So I think there's, in earnest, there are a lot of folks who are propagating this way of treating the scriptures. They really do think love your neighbor as yourself means gun rights or build the wall, whatever the thing is. At the same time, there are grififters. There have always been grifters. Uh, in the book of acts, there's this character called simon the sorcerer, who asks to get the power of the holy spirit in order to make money. And, uh, in the medieval era and maybe before. Actually, I should do some more reading on this uh, it was called simony the idea that I'm going to use that which is sacred to generate revenue. Uh, I'm going to use the power of scripture, uh, to garner for myself wealth, allegiance and power. Uh, there's this.
Speaker 2:Oh, jeremy, did you ever see the movie? Um, the book of eli? Yeah, okay, denzel washington, like late 2000s I think 2008 is when it came out. I love this. Uh, I believe it was a graphic novel, but I don't read um, so, uh, it was a movie. So I watched the movie, uh, and in the movie there is this scene between the protagonist and antagonist. So Denzel Washington's like the main figure and he confronts this kind of like this mayor of a small town in post-nuclear war America and this figure. Gary Oldman plays this character. He's on the hunt for a book, the book of eli and now denzel's character happens to be carrying this book and he's trying to get it to the certain place where the book belongs. According to him and spoiler alert the book is the bible. Uh, the gary oldman character wants the bible because he he says it in the movie.
Speaker 2:I want those words have power. If we are going to try to captivate this community and grow civilization, I need that book. Well, that's simony, that's that's taking the sacred and using it for personal gain. And there are many grifters, some of them American Christian nationalists, some of them in other spaces. I mean, there's just always grifters who want to use the power of the text for personal gain.
Speaker 2:And when we're talking to our loved ones, people in our church, people in our school, people in our community, and they're quoting some of these leaders, we can pray for discernment, lord, is that someone who's a true believer but they're incorrect? Or is that a grifter who's, you know, just seems to be using the text for their own personal gain? And one of the ways that you can tell is their character. Are they mean-spirited? Are they? Are they mean spirited? Are they dehumanizing, are arrogant, combative? Because every one of us is holding to some heresy and we do it in good faith. We think that we're holding onto something. True, but the grifter is simply leveraging the power of the text for personal gain. And the way that you can tell is look at their life. And Jesus tells his followers look at the fruit of those who say they're doing stuff in my name, and that's how you can discern. Uh, you know the grifter from the true believer.
Speaker 1:Man, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm thinking all of Christendom is set up for grifting for Simon. Yeah, dude, the inherent hey. If you believe this, you're going to be respected and you're going to be more power, more prestige, more this and that. And you know, for hundreds and hundreds of years and I would argue that the history of the church in America, you know it has been this Christendom model that has rewarded Cybony, and you know people might take shots at megachurches is like that's where you see it, but it's all over the place, it's everywhere. Yeah, and that is now. You know, hermeneutical magic is a killer phrase, dude. I love that, that is. I'm going to keep that one.
Speaker 2:Do it. It's not mine, it's James. I know I love it. That's a good one.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you have this other quote, catherine, I don't know notes. For most of us, the value of belonging far outweighs the value of attaining new information, especially if publicly accepted information and speaking up might lead to a negative outcome, an argument, the cold shoulder or even ostracism from your social group. So you talk about here and again. This is a theme we've already discussed it a few times, but this idea of how belonging drives us into what we believe. As I was reading that, my thought was where do I hear more talk about belonging than I do anywhere else? And it's in churches. Churches are the ones that love this word.
Speaker 1:Hey, welcome home. I mean, how many churches say that? Right, welcome home. What is that? That is a statement trying to grab all of your emotions. You belong here, all of this. So my question then is uh, obviously we all want to belong. This is some deep need inside of us. How do we foster a healthy sense of belonging that protects us from falling into some of these other things where we get so far into it we go? What on earth am I believing? How do we, how do we do a better job inside and out of the church, of fostering belonging?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's a great question. Yeah, there's kind of a pseudo belonging um. Hey, when we're in the room together, we belong together. So I see that a lot in churches, like the minister will get up and say hey, family. Well, that's, that's a pretty strong claim bud, like who's the dad? Also like are you the? You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Um, jesus did refer to the church as a, as a body yeah, right, um, and as a and an inter. The new testament gets into the idea that we're all interwoven, that the church is a body or a temple. Um, you do have language of brothers and sisters. So I, I get the familial language, um, but we are brothers and sisters, not not like kings and subjects. So I, I think there's some good there, but it can be distorted into something that is meeting a need in a false or fabricated way. Like you're a member, quote unquote at this church. Therefore, you belong. If you leave, you no longer belong. Or if you ask the wrong questions, you no longer belong. If you don't conform to the doctrinal statement, you don't belong. This is the bounded set, the bounded idea of the church. So, thinking about how do we nurture community? And this is the way that I've understood it is Jesus showed us that true discipleship happens at tables centered on him, and it's tables full of misfits. I mean just thinking about who was at the tables that Jesus set. You've got the rich and the poor, the elite and the downtrodden. You've got co-conspirators against the empire with collaborators of empire. You've got mafia-esque figures and those who have been subject to their reign, you've got religious elite next to pimps and prostitutes. And it's at the table that you find community of misfits because you're anchored not in your common affinities but you're anchored by Jesus. Fits because you're anchored not in your common affinities but you're anchored by Jesus. And when we can see the space between us as gifts, as an opportunity for me to grow in Christ likeness, then we can start to see that spiritual maturity is the capacity to carry the distance between you and me. When I can pursue heart to heart relationships, getting to know someone, not their facts and opinions but their deep feelings and needs, this would be called intimacy into me, see, when I can say and commit to a group of people, you can see into me and I can see into you. And I recognize that there is a vast difference on these parts of us. And while I'm not agreeing with you, I still want you and me to be in good, deep relationship and I'm willing to carry the distance between you and me. And if you're willing to carry the distance between you and me and do stuff like practice, the fruit of the spirit, when we talk and hang out, then we can do this thing called friendship for the next six to seven decades, how you know whatever, how, how old you're going to live. Um, groups like uh, american Christian nationalist movement cults. They fabricate a distorted version of belonging by means of conformity of conviction, culture or posture. And so the I belong is answered because I feel like we all believe and behave the same way. But true belonging is we're both willing to be heart to heart with each other and carry the distance between us. Because what I want more than conformity of belief and behavior is I want you and me to see into each other, to know each other.
Speaker 2:And CS Lewis, my favorite book is the four loves. I'm a pastor. I'm supposed to say my favorite book is the Bible. So the Bible, but after that it's the four loves. And my favorite chapter of any book is his chapter on friendship. He talks of friendship as something that has been recognized, as something even deeper than romantic relationships. Because friends look, he says lovers, look at each other and say you know, we're in this for what we get out of each other. But friends look at something else and say do you see the same thing I see. And when that something else can be anchored in Jesus, then we can maintain every distance between us because we're anchored in something outside of us. Whereas romance is usually anchored in the other, friendship is anchored in something external to the relationship. So healthy relationship is hey, are you following Jesus? Me too? Shall we enter into a deep friendship with each other and we just keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, not on the differences between you and me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so much deeper than what we think of when we think of belonging. You know, and I think of like in churches and I very much, I very much own what I'm about to say. So don't this is not a critique on others, this is I was, I was definitely one of these guys, but you know, I think about the last two churches I was a part of. One of the things we really pushed emphasis on was window stickers. You know, I think about the last two churches I was a part of one of the things we really pushed emphasis on was window stickers.
Speaker 1:You know for the logo of the church and you know where I live. It's very common, most churches have them and nothing inherently wrong with that. And I remember you know thinking at the time and you know even the church I was lead pastor of, we pushed these really hard of like, what a great way to have conversation. And you know and and obviously make a like, hey, this is something I'm a part of and it means something. And I would get asked about it and all that and always just saw the good in it. And I remember one day after all this, after I had left the ministry, had someone asked me about they're like what's the deal with all these church stickers on the cards, you know? And I'm like, oh, let me explain how beautiful is. And they made this observation.
Speaker 1:They're like it's like a bunch of christian gangs and you're all and you're saying gang sign, you're a part of yes, and I had never thought of it like from that point of view and I was like, oh, I could totally see how, with such an outward display of belonging, right, I'm in this community. So then now, even if you're a Christian, well, you're not the same logo Christian that I am on my car, and it's just amazing how, if that is all belonging is right, then it really breaks down. But I love your idea of, like it's got to be, this connection between us and truthfully, I think that's not found in a lot of churches, right, like that's where people are going. Hey, I I said in a life group that I disagreed with something and now they're shunning me. You know, like that doesn't feel like there's that bonding, but when people it, it's incredibly powerful yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:tribalism is an attempt to make a community of people feel safety and belonging and purpose by means of defining who is in and who is out. And one way that tribalism toxic tribalism can be propagated is through totems like a bumper sticker, a slogan, a t-shirt, a rhetoric, a pledge. These are all means of saying we belong together because of this affinity. The Jesus movement says you have nothing in common except for me, and so we're not bound together by a common status or even a common idea. We're bound together by god, enfleshed, death, burial, resurrection and a common hope. So I think, when you think, when Paul says we have one Lord, one hope, one faith, one baptism, he's not looking at earthly affinities, he's looking at Jesus as the one who anchors us together.
Speaker 2:And we too often are quick to take the cheap substitute that doesn't require anything of me, namely a logo, a slogan, a title vulnerable, because if I am inviting you to see into me, you could really hurt me and that would make me feel not safe, and I don't want to do that, jeremy. So instead, why don't you just wear the same logo that I wear and we'll just pretend this pleasant illusion that we are having deep communion and here's how you know it's not deep communion when you start to say, actually I don't like what you're doing, so I'm just going to give you a new logo. Well, there's no intimacy in that, right. I think that the ancient view of friendship had a lot more in common with what we call covenant marriage than we give it credit for. There's this bonding that happened, maybe, certainly not necessarily ceremonially, but friendship was understood as something about um two bodies and one heart, and that's a very vulnerable, vulnerable position to be in.
Speaker 1:yeah, it's also very beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lewis would say yeah. If you want to be completely safe, lock yourself in a casket where no one can touch you. That'll do it. That'll do it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so another image you used and you referenced this a little bit in your last answer. So it was great. It was a great setup. You didn't know I was going here, but thank you for transitioning us. Uh, you say this while some are called to that prophetic ministry of table flipping ie speaking god's truth often to those in power many more of us are called to reach the people who have been ensnared by christian nationalism by engaging in the ministry of table setting. I really like the contrast you create here of table flipping or table setting. My journey has been much more of the table flipping. That has been what I have been called to do and have the scars to show it and teach their own. You have definitely been more of the table setter and I do think that's what more people are called to For someone who wants to set the table. Well, what are some takeaways you've learned?
Speaker 2:How do they do that? Yeah, and I would stand in solidarity with you, jeremy, that my instinct is flip the table. I mean, one of my deepest needs for things to be right, justice and that was my initial posture towards the American Christian nationalist movement was let's just get in there and flip tables. But Jesus flipped tables, you know, and there's time for that. But he set so many tables, as you read through the gospels, and one, theologian says that Jesus ate his way through the gospels, and I love that, because it's at the table, whether it's the communion table, the kitchen table or the pub table that we have an invitation to enter into safety, belonging and purpose through friendship. And so methods for setting tape, for table setting ministry is um, having a recognition that I'm going to carry some burden here. When I invite this person, to these people to my table, they're going to say and do things that cause my heart to express feelings that I don't like feeling sadness, anxiety, rage, disappointment, fear, whatever it might be. And so I want to be in a healthy position. Uh, lord, what's going on in my heart is I'm anticipating this meeting so that I can be a hospitable host. I mean, jesus didn't seem to get riled up when the people who were at his table got riled up. Uh, how can I be like jesus and attend to his presence in this gathering again, whether it's my home, the pub, the church, you know, the community table, whatever? Um, and then approaching people with genuine curiosity, so somebody might say something that you think is abhorrent, derisive, crazy, unstable, whatever.
Speaker 2:Instead of fighting fire with fire, a way to practice hospitality is to lean into curiosity. Tell me more about that, even to honor the good in the thing or the statement that you didn't like. For instance, you might say aunt betty, I love that you care so much about that thing. So aunt betty's yelling and screaming at the dinner table about immigrants flooding into the country and taking all of our jobs and whatever it might be, you say I love that you care about our community so much, I also love our community.
Speaker 2:So you can practice hospitality by connecting on shared values and, no matter where the conversation goes, to recognize what's going on in my own heart and if I'm becoming anxious or ragey, I have an invitation then to pause the meeting or to stop the conversation and say this is really important stuff we're talking about here and I need time to process it. And so can we meet back together, and this is key for hospitality. Can we meet back together next week, um? Cause what that says is what I want is for you and me to be good. I really do want to see into your heart and I want you to see into my heart.
Speaker 2:Right now I'm not in a position to do that because I'm just feeling feelings or I'm ragey, or I'm I'm. I'm trying to put all these pieces together of all the stuff you just said. Can we just press pause, cause I really want to think about these things that you care about, um. And sometimes it means like, hey, can we end the meeting? Sometimes it means can we shift the conversation? Can we go into the other room and watch football, whatever it might be, recognizing that when I start becoming in an unhealthy way, it's hospitable to just stop what we're doing. And but also hospitality says let's pick it up later, and then that gives me space to pray, to process, to take a nap, to have some Federalist wine perhaps you go, there you go, I like it so hospitality is more than just like inviting people in or cooking a meal.
Speaker 2:It is fostering environment where my guests feel safe and we can feel truly so. True safety and true belonging exist in environments where we will disagree on all of our stuff in our brains, but what we're connecting each other to is not our brains but our hearts. It's not our common affinities, it's our heart for one another or our heart for the Lord, depending on the person's faith. And that's real hospitality, and each of us have an invitation to practice that, like Jesus did, and it's very difficult for some people. They're just not going to receive it well, and then it may become an issue of boundary setting where you know what? I just don't think we're the family or I'm the person to host Aunt Betty right now, but I'm going to pray that somebody is, and that's okay too. Some of us are called to this work directly. Some of us are called to pray for those who are doing the work directly, and both are really healthy postures to take.
Speaker 1:That's great work directly, and both are really healthy postures to take. That's great. I've also learned. Inviting them to enjoy a glass of wine with you can be helpful too.
Speaker 2:Yes, and for your American Christian nationalist neighbors, I could recommend nothing higher than the vintage 2022. Federalist from Lodi.
Speaker 1:There we go. When they see a picture on this wine in this episode no.
Speaker 2:I'm just glad that Ben Franklin is on the wine cover and that it's called the Federalist, with like an American Eagle on it.
Speaker 1:You're very proud of that and I'm happy with how proud you are of that I am.
Speaker 2:I hunt. I mean I was on the hunt for patriotic wine. I love it.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's a great transition. We're going, we're gonna we're gonna talk about wine for a second, then we're gonna do our speed round caleb, okay, so here's the wine question that I asked people. Okay, uh, and and I have got all extremes of this question from nothing to blow me away, stories, anything in between. It's no wrong or right answer. What is like, if you think about the best experience you've ever had with wine, is there a memory that comes to mind where you think, wow, it was that glass that I had, or that bottle, or it was that dinner, or is with that you know group of people. Is there something you think of that was like the most you've ever enjoyed wine? Do you have a moment like that and, if so, what can you remember of it?
Speaker 2:Yes, so 2020 was the worst year of my life. I was leading a congregation through the three F's of 2020, fauci, floyd and the federal election. 80% of the congregation that was there in 2016 was gone by the end of 2020. I had become an enemy to hundreds of people and had some very, very close relationships fractured. So 2020 is devastating. Close relationships fracture so 2020 is devastating. I mean, I got COVID in June, shingles in July and a facial paralysis spot on by stress and the shingles in August.
Speaker 1:Wow, you really went for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you can't win, make the highlight reel. That's what I like to say. So my board was awesome. They sent me on a three-month sabbatical. They were very generous and it afforded my wife and I the opportunity in 2021 to go to, uh, england and france.
Speaker 2:I like where this is going, and we started in london, made our way around the southern part of england, took a little ferry over, got to france, went to saint malo, uh, and then we went to this little town in normandy that had a cathedral and they, there was this restaurant there that was in a 600 year old wine cellar that was carved out of rock, so you'd walk down into it. There's like six tables and it's one of those like fancy joints that you don't like. Order off the menu. There's just option a and b. You know what I mean, like the five course meal, right, and so it's like which was great, because I don't speak french. So I'm like that one. You know, the one without the snails.
Speaker 2:That's what I wanted, just the one without the snails and out of, and they had carved in this old wine cellar. They had carved in a little section that was their wine cellar, but you walk back in and again, the whole room is stone, you know cause? It's carved like almost like a cave, but gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous. And my wife and I to this day talk about that meal and that wine as when we peaked. So if we never make it back there, that was it, like we just peaked there and it was the timing, it was this the the scene. I mean that france had just reopened after covid stuff in 2021. Uh, they had just reopened the restaurant, so we weren't like waiting in line. There was very little foot traffic around. It was awesome, um, and I still remember like sitting there with my wife for like hours just crushing, uh as much as we could, uh, their particular wine cellar selection.
Speaker 1:So good. That is a great story, caleb. Well done. Thank you, thank you, well done. Okay, a few questions, close us out. Great, what is something that's blowing your mind right now?
Speaker 2:Like in what department?
Speaker 1:And you go anywhere. You want to go with this. I love real time time like people are like wow great.
Speaker 2:So I I super nerd time. One of my favorite bands is rush uh, and I just finished reading the bass player and lead singer, getty lee. I just finished reading his like 500 page biography, autobiography and it's one of the few autobiographies that I couldn't put down but was also like delighting in, because you're getting a different, you're getting inside the head of an artist that, for me, I really, really appreciate and uh. But one of the things that blew me away was he starts. He's Jewish, his mom and dad were Holocaust survivors and his story of their story brought me to tears. The resiliency of um, this young man and young woman who got married right after liberation, and what was mind blowing was how much of that he had carried into, uh, his own life, and how generational trauma really does shape um and have powerful effects on on us. So that was mind blowing.
Speaker 1:Love it. What's the problem you're trying to solve right now?
Speaker 2:I need every mega church pastor in America to buy 10,000 copies of my book for their small groups and I don't know how to get their email address. That's tricky. Also, my dishwasher is exhibiting an error code and I ordered the part, and the problem I'm trying to solve is I need to fix it without paying somebody to fix it are you going to attempt it? Yourself.
Speaker 1:Yes, I always do are you, are you handy?
Speaker 2:well, I know how to watch youtube, okay, and I know the difference between a flathead and a phillips screwdriver, and I was raised with a poverty mindset, okay. So all those three things at play are going to compel me to try to fix this. You're gonna figure it out, I'm going to do it and I will resent every moment of it, and then, if I fix it, I'll take a picture and put it on youtube or on social media to celebrate and to self-congratulate. Yeah, yeah. Look at me a clergyman who works with his hands.
Speaker 2:Ladies and gentlemen, look at these callous.
Speaker 1:Caleb Campbell Mitts. What is something you're excited about right now?
Speaker 2:Well, I have a book coming out on July 2nd that you can pre-order your 10 000 copies on amazon, where you go, but other than that, uh summer vacation with my family okay, where are you going? To that san diego old faithful. Yeah, love it there very cool they have this brewery. Stone brewery has this place at liberty station. It's one of my favorite places in the world, so I love going there as much as I can. Nice.
Speaker 1:Is there anything you'd like to add that I may not have asked you about?
Speaker 2:That's a dangerous question. I usually get good answers to that question A question that I wish you would have asked me or should have asked me, is there?
Speaker 1:anything you want to talk about anything. You want to say hey, what one more thing? Oh man, but I didn't. I didn't bring it up and you were hoping to get to it bro, this has been a great interview.
Speaker 2:I feel like anything I would add would just be subpar. It would be pearls before swine, frankly no, it would be swine before pearls, no that's, yeah, yeah it would be swine before pearls. Okay, so I I think just like this fine federalist wine. Uh, just chef's kiss to the interview that's good.
Speaker 1:That's because you've been drinking this is, this is yeah, I actually this is my third bottle so bottle.
Speaker 2:So I misunderstood the instructions and the premise of the podcast interview. If you're familiar with drunk history, I thought it's like drunk theology. So once you start hitting record, it's too late.
Speaker 1:That might make it to the bumper reel. I'm just saying that's pretty good right there. I like that. Okay, Caleb, I do want to support the book. How can people find you and the book online? Where do they need to go?
Speaker 2:So you can go to disarmingleviathancom. We have a podcast. We have some lists of resources that you can use if you want to understand American Christian nationalism and those who imbibe it better. Lots of great resources and books and articles and YouTube clips. Those who imbibe it better Uh, lots of great resources and books and articles and YouTube clips. Uh, podcasts Uh, we do have a podcast. If you just go to your podcast app and go to disarming Leviathan, uh, surprisingly there's not many of the same name and, uh, weird Um and uh, a lot of what we talk about the podcast is practical ways to missionally engage American Christian nationalists in your life. And then, yeah, the book is with InterVarsity Press comes out July 2nd. I'm on all the socials, so if you just look up Disarming Leviathan, you'll find us, I think.
Speaker 1:Well, caleb, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to to field all these questions while enjoying a nice bottle of wine. It's been a joy to read your book, to hear your heart. I have learned a ton. I think you're dropping some great little truth nuggets for people today, and not just theory stuff, but stuff that's immensely helpful. So thank you for your heart and for your work for the kingdom and for helping to make us better today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, jeremy. It was great being on with you.
Speaker 1:All right, everybody, we'll catch you next time on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray.